Anonymous challenges me to "get to it" and thinks I don't publish comments that challenge me. I published his comment, but I'll do better than that, I'll copy it here as a post so that nobody misses it. (I'll leave all the incorrect spelling and grammar.)
*****
Over all on Guam, the Neocatechumenal Way does more than any other group on island. When the Archbishop asks for help, who responds to his request? The communities respond. When he needs a priest he can rely on, who does he call, a priest trained in the Way. They are the pastors of the future, they are the way the Church on Guam will recover. The good we do far exceeds any bad that people accuse us of. All this infighting must STOP!
Rome is certainly aware of the way in which we celebrate the Eucharist, and they still allow it to this day. If they say change, we will change. What does that tell you Tim? There is an understanding that you and I are not aware of. Some body actually suggested that I go to confession because I go to Eucharist with my community. That is over the top to suggest that it is sinful to receive Christ in the way we do. If there is a division here on Guam, isn't it just possible the division is caused by those not in the Way, spawned by jealousy? But they are not willing to put in the hours and hard work we do.
The Archbishop goes to all the fiestas possible, more than any Archbishop in the world, I would guess. He visits all catholic schools, every year. By brother recently finished a Cursillo course and the Archbishop was there for the graduation. And guess what, they sing a lot to. He supports all people fairly as is his job.
Don't get mad at him or us just because the Neocatechumenal Way is what fires the flame within us.
Blessed Pope John Paul II and even Benedict have called for the world to help bring Jesus to China. Kiko wants to do his part by sending 10,000 priests to storm that heathen nation. If there are a few problems, these can certainly be offset with all the good that has come from us, and our commitment to supporting the missionary reach of the Church.
You have planted a seed of suspicion in your comment to Anonymous/Ryan. I think it is a weed that will not grow straight.
Prove me wrong if you can, but until then stop baiting the trap for the unknowing to wander into and make terrible claims about. Most of it just isn't true, or taken completely out of context.
I saw what Zoltan said and wonder if it is true about you publishing only what you want to hear. Well, lets see if you are as balanced as you say you are. Publish this, and lets see who else in a community agrees with me?
*****
Okay, community members, have at it. But you just may want to check with the Archbishop before you go on like this person. He has a letter in front of him right now that I am sure he does not want to go out.
We'll come back to this comment in a future post. Just wanted you all to have the whole thing unfiltered. Also, for the record, there is only one comment I didn't post, a comment from Zoltan after I banned him. I banned him because I thought he was a discredit to most of the members of the Neocatechumenal Way. However, he seems to have no care for how he presents himself, so feel free. In fact, I'll turn off the comments moderation so what you post is immediately viewable. It's all yours folks. Have at it.
So, for the record, What is your overall opinion of the NCW? Im a bit confused now that you accuse "Zoltan" of being a discredit to the NCW. Does this mean that deep inside you believe the NCW is a good thing? Please share.
ReplyDeleteIve been getting caught up in all of this drama in here about the NCW that I found it ironic for someone like you to supposedly have a negative view of the NCW and its practices and certain times refer to it as something away from the Catholic Church but at the Cathedral Gift Shop there are resources that members of the NCW are constantly purchasing. I saw this as support torawrds the NCW. please clarify.
Anonymous (December 17, 2013 at 2:15AM): I don't know how far back you've read this blog but here's a post from early on which might give you some insight as to Tim's "overall opinion of the NCW." Be sure to follow the link to "Honest Thoughts of the Neocatechumenal Way" contained in the post.
DeleteSorry, Anonymous (December 17, 2013 at 2:15AM): I forgot to add the link; here it is:
Deletehttp://junglewatch2.blogspot.com/2013/07/the-apuron-gofigan-affair-update-72713.html
Yes, dear Anonymous, Tim might be fearful that he is left out of a good thing and that is why he is so desperate to attack the Way day and night. He wants to prove that whatever he is left out is no good... But the truth is that he was not left out from anything good. He may just stand up and give us a visit. Then he would see that he may join at any time he wishes and be part of the same good thing.
DeleteBut this is so scary to join the Way... isn't it? ;)
Zoltan, I do believe that you are the one who is scared because Tim is just beginning to open Pandora's Box. This is just the tip of the iceberg. You see, the fear you have is that we who have not joined the Way are now truly in your WAY.
DeleteI for one used to be in the Way, and what I have been posting is first hand and real. I also know some truths about missionary families and how they have cost the Archdiocese money over the years.
DeleteWe were told that their home communities helped to support them, but that they needed support from us, also. It was relayed to me by a former family about how generous (benevolent) the Archbishop has been in paying for certain expenses with Chancery funds, but we thought our contributions went for those expenses. So I began to wonder where our contributions went if not to the mission families? This was the last straw, I was disgusted, and I got out. They call money the shit if the devil, but the leaders of the NCW are like flies that cannot keep away from it!
I think Mr Rohr would like to hear about this, but it sounds like he also knows some of this dirty detail.
When I was first in the Way I thought it was wonderful how the Archbishop was reaching out to these families, but it wasn't even his own money. Just to have access to him at gatherings like a regular guy was pretty special for me and many. But now, I wonder why he isn't so generous with his own people, many of whom are suffering? And it makes me quite sick to my stomach.
In the business world they call it networking. A friend today can return a favor tomorrow. Well, guess what. The Archbishop makes young guns look like novices when it comes to networking. Where ever he goes, he can count on a community there to help support his "fist Mass" junkets. Too bad they can't pay for the air tickets.
Like someone else recently questioned, MONEY, MONEY, MONEY. It has made a lot of great men stumble, so we should not be surprised when a lesser man falls as well.
This will get exposed...I hope Rome does something about it.
Please clarify or site incidences where only the NCW members or NCW priests come out to support his requests for help. I am a strong parish member at the Basilica and he has never approached me for help! HELLO!
ReplyDeleteWhy does KIko need to be the one to send priests to all these nations that need evangelization? IT IS NOT HIS JOB! IT IS THAT OF ROME! If the SHEPHERDS of these nations see the need for more priests or missionaries, who would they ask, KIKO or ROME?
ReplyDeleteIf what YOU say is TRUE about KIKO, then I guess he is YOUR POPE because he is delegating priests and missionaries to go wherever! Whatever KIKO says must be the GOSPEL TRUTH.
Do your research on Kiko. Nobody said he was Pope.
DeleteTake a good close look at the images Kiko paints, seems to be a slight resemblance of a so called self portrait of himself.
DeleteBeautiful I must say.
DeleteAnonymous (December 17, 2013 at 6:48AM): Archbishop Anthony Sablan Apuron implied that Kiko is HIS pope back in January 2006 when he declared on KOLG that ONLY The Way offers the FULLNESS of the Eucharistic Celebration. For him to extol the "liturgy" developed by Kiko over the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass in either the Ordinary or Extraordinary Form spoke volumes to me.
DeleteHe also questioned "what credentials" Cardinal Arinze possessed, referring to the letter written to Kiko, et al by Arinze on behalf of Pope Benedict XVI which began with the words "I am to inform you of the Holy Father's decision …" I hope Tim releases that audio soon so you can hear for yourself the disdain in the Archbishop's voice for a Prince of the Church! It's no wonder that particular episode disappeared from the Archives of KOLG and was never heard on the air again.
"FULLNESS of the EUCHARISTIC CELEBRATION" by means of the WAY? Guess my attending masses with the "norm" is null and void.
DeleteDear anonymous December 17, 2013 at 6:48am
DeleteYou say "Do your research on Kiko. Nobody said he was Pope."
Let me see... The above post says:
"Blessed Pope John Paul II and even Benedict have called for the world to help bring Jesus to China. Kiko wants to do his part by sending 10,000 priests to storm that heathen nation."
If you claim that he is not a pope...but he is sending 10,000 priests to storm that heathen nation...he sure does act like a pope! He seems to have A GREAT AUTHORITY OVER PRIESTS. Since when do priests follow the orders of a layperson let alone someone who is DEFINITELY NOT A POPE!
Maybe I should not lay blame on Kiko ...maybe I should LAY BLAME on ALL the priests and bishops and archbishops who are DISOBEDIENT in following the pope but instead choose to follow the of Kiko.
Who is writing this nonsense. The NCW is awful. Super awful, i pray really hard that this sect is gone from Guam.
ReplyDeleteHello???
ReplyDelete1. The NCW does more?
Don't where you are from, but in my parish, you don't see them unless they need something. For example, in the spirit of brotherhood, at a recent Christmas party where the NCW communities were invited, the MC asked everyone to stand who was participating in some kind of ministry in the parish. Only people not standing were from the NCW and it showed because they segregated themselves to a few tables. Just one example.
2. If they say Change????
they DID!!! back when Tim said they did, not only they but the POPE himself said to.
3. Jealousy??
could you please tell me what I'm supposed to be jealous of? Other than the fact that the members of the NCW come into the parish and think that they own everything, and not making regular contributions to the support of the parish.
Please don't tell me that I just don't understand, and then do not provide one iota of information to help me understand.
This is what I understand:
1. the NCW is a lay catechetical organization whose mission is to help catechize the unchurched, and those initiated and not practicing their faith.
So why always inviting those attending mass who are practicing their faith?
(and it really irks me when someone stands at the pulpit and says today Jesus is passing by, whilst standing in front of the Tabernacle!
Gee, how blessed we must be that an NCW member brought Jesus with him.)
2. supposedly based on the RCIA model (although expanded) with the purpose of reintegrating members into the regular community (parish).
This is supposed to take approximately seven years, but I've yet to see anyone "reintegrate".
Finally, to bad for me and all the saints who have gone before us, because my/their faith is trash.
Neocatechumenal Way is a Catholic education institution, declared by the Blessed John Paul II, a gift of the Holy Spirit.
ReplyDeleteIn the diocese of the Pope, in Rome, there are 500 communities and 20,000 Neocatechumenal
Guam is getting close of becoming the Rome in the Pacific... ;)
DeleteYes Tim,
ReplyDeleteI'd like to know where the "trash bag" money goes. Do the NCW members know where their money goes and who or what benefits from it? Do they know how much money is being accounted for and do they have records?
I'd like to know how these missionary families are being supported. So they get SNAP for food... But how do they pay for their living expenses or necessities?
What's the "Thrilla in Manila"??? I'd like to know that as well...
My... my... I can't wait to hear what stories the NCW members will tell....
Ya Tim, please tell us
DeleteOne of the biggest evidences that the NCW is a cult is the extreme loyalty the members show to the leadership. I really think many of them know deep down in their hearts that something is wrong. But it is like an addiction, the bad is justified by the good. So don't expect too many NeoCats to break ranks. They would be ostracized to no end.
DeleteHowever, lucky for the world, the flaws of this program eventually drive people away, and since the Neo has been around here for 14 years or more, there are plenty of ex-Neos that can share credible info on the works. But just like all cults, information is normally held very close to the vest. Thats why all former Neo Cats need to share whatever info you have. It may not tell the whole story, but there are people who can piece all these little bits of info together to make a mural of deceit and lies come to life.
Archbishop, I used to love you, but I can see now that you are not the right shepherd for our church. Maybe you were before and you have been corrupted, or maybe you never really had what it takes. I and many are going to present the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth.
This is your official warning...
PREPARE FOR A MORE ARDUOUS AND PAINFUL CLOSURE TO YOUR ASSIGNMENT AT SAN RAMON!
Janet B - Mangilao
Please, stop spreading superstitions about the Way!
DeleteAs I read the comments, I can't help noticing that the majority are made by persons who prefer to remain "Anonymous." I can understand how former NCW members might want to protect themselves from harassment by current members, clergy and lay. There is that need for self-preservation from the zealousness of active members who might feel the need to berate the former members for their decision to leave.
ReplyDeleteWhat I don't understand is the tendency for current, active NCW members to post as "Anonymous," too. If The Way is as wonderful as you claim, why not step up and "own" your statements? Why hide your identity? If you don't want to identify yourself — or at least give yourself a pseudonym — it gives me the impression that you're simply regurgitating the mantras that have been drilled into you during your formation.
We don't have to entertain you Mary. Or others. Non or our comments are insulting but rather statements that try to bring understanding. But just like people claim about the NCW, your mind is set to believe we are a cult. Protestant or whatever you wanna call your own brother and sisters in Christ. There's no changing it. You see one member lash out and say rude things, but really 1/5 people are insulting and degrading the NCW, how else would a human react.
DeleteCorrection most comment are insulting... How else would a human react. Last 2 sentences
DeleteAnonymous...you are right...you don't have to entertain Mary Lou or others. So why even speak up??? Why try to defend your faith if you yourself are hiding? It's like sheeps in wolves clothing... your actions don't define who you are! You hide behind a veil of the word anonymous trying to speak the truth but you can't truthfully say who you are? Are you afraid of someone or something? You don't have to be afraid of "us regular Catholics" we know who you are as neos when we come across you in person without even asking your name because your actions say it all. But to hide yourself from us on this blog is very strange...frankly...we don't care who you are...we just want answers and we want you all to stop following such a Protestant movement. Anything outside the catholic church that does not conform with the church is Protestant. SO WHO ARE YOU HIDING FROM? You can't be scared of us lay non neo people?
DeleteTo Anonymous (December 18, 2013 at 12:46AM):
DeleteFirst, I do not seek to be entertained. This blog does not entertain me. It pains me to acknowledge that the Church on Guam is, and has been, divided for far too long.
Second, your statement "… just like people claim about the NCW, your mind is set to believe we are a cult" is presumptuous. You have no idea what is on my mind, so let me tell you …
In December 2005 a friend asked why there were “divisions in the Church” between The Way and “the rest of us.” My response: Such divisions are personal perceptions; there are different charisms in the Church to meet the needs of Her members. Soon after that, people shared complaints about The Way and stated that they wanted to get rid of it. I cautioned them to not act rashly, reminding them of Gamaliel’s counsel in the Book of Acts “ … if it be of God, you cannot overthrow it, lest perhaps you be found even to fight against God.”
In January 2006 I was listening to KOLG’s “Why Do Catholics Do That?” People called in with questions about The Way, probably fueled by an article in January 1, 2006 issue of The Pacific Voice which included Cardinal Arinze’s letter to Kiko Argüello, et al. It began with the words “I am to inform you of the Holy Father’s decisions …” The program hosts, Fr. Mike Crisostomo and Fred Rodriguez, welcomed input by Fr. Bibi Arroyo via telephone. While Fr. Bibi explained the basic concepts of The Way, Archbishop Anthony Sablan Apuron walked into the studio. Clearly, neither host had anticipated a personal visit by the Archbishop.
Once the Archbishop joined the discussion, I understood why the perception of division within the Church existed. He questioned whether Cardinal Arinze even had “the credentials” to raise questions about The Way. His tone of voice was quite derisive, not the kind one would expect to hear from an Archbishop when referring to a Prince of the Church!
He described the Mass of The Way as THE One which offered the FULLNESS of the Eucharistic Celebration. He stated that ONLY in the Mass of The Way did members receive the Eucharist the way the Apostles did, seated at table. (Actually, the cultural posture at table was to recline, not sit.) With each statement that exalted the Mass of The Way, the Archbishop implied that the “regular” Mass — Ordinary and/or Extraordinary Form — was incomplete and inferior to that of The Way.
As he spoke it was clear that the Archbishop was very passionate about The Way. I did not know then that he was walking The Way; I thought he was merely a strong supporter. As more people asked questions, the tone of his voice began to betray his impatience. He was clearly not pleased with the questions that were raised; his voice progressed from mere impatience to frustration and then to thinly-veiled anger. The Archbishop, as successor to the Apostles, is supposed to shepherd ALL Catholics within the Archdiocese. By the end of the program, I had no doubt that many callers felt like sheep without a shepherd — or more accurately, that the shepherd was only tending to the sheep in The Way.
As the program signed off, I had to admit there WAS a division in the Church. I thought that if I could hear the episode again, I might feel differently. That program never aired again.
I admit that I am angry that the Archbishop decided in 2006 to ignore the decision of Pope Benedict XVI and subject himself to Kiko Argüello. I am angry that instead of sending NCW members to find the “unchurched” and catechize them, the Archbishop sends them into Masses to hold us hostage and try to pluck new candidates from the pews. I am angry that, by walking The Way, the Archbishop has, in essence, relinquished his role as shepherd but insists on enjoying the benefits of his title.
You see, Anonymous (December 18, 2013 at 12:46AM), you do not know what’s on my mind. You had no idea that I once defended the NCW. You had no idea how the words and actions of Archbishop Anthony Sablan Apuron have made the division in the Church in Guam a grim REALITY to many of us “regular” Catholics.
Dear Mary Lou, you are mixing your emotions about two substantially different things: 1. about the Neocatechumenal Way and 2. about the Archbishop. You see, you can be right or wrong about either or both of these, because there is no correlation between them.
DeleteIn my opinion, you are incorrect about both of your assumptions. The Archbishop has every right to invest time and energy into projects that are promising and bear fruits. Sending lay men and women, sons and daughters of Guam into mission to spread the Gospel around the world is an undeniable fruit of the Way.
You should discuss your feelings about the Way apart from your feelings about the Archbishop. The Way is a special organizational and educational tool that is centered around small faith communities inside individual parishes. The Archbishop is a Church authority, a sacred office that we all respect as Catholics.
Tim's explanation that he has seen bishops in the past to cover up abuses somewhere in the Mainland is inadequate. He is simply biased because of his painful past experiences and would fight anything and anyone with authority.
Enough is enough! I am not a Neocat. For those in the NCW, if this has brought you closer to The Lord I am glad for you. For this who are not but continue to have faith I too am glad for you. For those who have left because of the inconsistency then your faith is not strong.
ReplyDeleteThe Archbishop needs to reflect and fix what needs mending. The ball is in his hands. I hope he does not wait until more of his flock move elsewhere.
God bless you all.
Thank you. And God Bless
DeleteDear Mr. “Get to it”:
ReplyDeleteIt seems that you have not read the postings and comments carefully because you were dismissive of many of the arguments and points that were logically and forcefully made as just the ranting of “jealous” people. Here is what you said:
"If there is a division here on Guam, isn't it just possible the division is caused by those not in the Way, spawned by jealousy? But they are not willing to put in the hours and hard work we do."
Please look at the comments that address the issue of the causes of this division, one of which is that the archbishop has chosen to join the NCW, be subservient to it, and devote extraordinary attention to such a tiny group at the expense of all non NCW people (see the comment on the analogy of the 5Th Grade Teacher’s Class). If you were the leader of an army and decided to devote all your attention to one small unit and ignore the rest of the army, will that cause dissension and division among the ranks? Of course it will. A leader is supposed to lead all, not just a select few. Don’t forget: #*^@ rolls down hill and there is plenty of it right now.
And where do you get off saying that non Neo people “are not willing to put in the hours and hard work we do.”? That statement insults the thousands of non Neo volunteers (Yes, that’s right—there are far more non Neo people than there are Neo people) who tirelessly and without tooting their horns devote their time, energy, and resources to build up the Catholic Church in Guam. Shame on you for denigrating such hardworking and devoted Catholics! I am not sure what hard work do you do, but I am sure it is all neo related. Try and enlarge that circle of life within which you operate and you may actually then build up your treasure in heaven.
Now, let’s address your next implausible statement:
"I am in the Neo and I have seen all that you have written. Although I don't necessarily agree with you, you at least lay out your facts so people can judge. But is it so irresponsible to string this out and allow all kinds of other neer do wells to comment on things they know absolutely nothing about."
You make the presumptuous statement that people are commenting on things they know absolutely nothing about. Well Mr. “get to it”, I know a lot about the NCW and I know what I am saying. You don’t have to be a member of the NCW to know about it, just as I don’t need to be French to know about France. Mr. Rohr is not being irresponsible. He is just presenting the issues in an organized and logical fashion so that we can easily address them point by point with precision and clarity, not jumbled up as you have done with your comment.
(to be continued)
(continued)
ReplyDeleteHere is your next jumbled statement:
" The Archbishop goes to all the fiestas possible, more than any Archbishop in the world, I would guess. He visits all catholic schools, every year. By brother recently finished a Cursillo course and the Archbishop was there for the graduation. And guess what, they sing a lot to. He supports all people fairly as is his job."
The archbishop is required to perform certain basic duties under canon law, such as the annual visit to all Catholic schools. Thus, he is not doing anything extraordinary by doing so, and as far as going to all the fiesta masses, he should as the bishop because that parish is celebrating her patron saint, but as it was stated in some of the comments, he presides over these events so long as they do not interfere with his Neo schedule. The archbishop required fiesta masses to move up one hour so that he can make his Saturday night Neo mass with his community at his personal residence (not in Church mind you). He also failed to preside on the first night of the novena for Guam’s patron saint because of his pizza party with the Neo seminarians and mission families, and he was conspicuously absent at the FD 65th Anniversary Gala dinner because he was at a Neo retreat. There are many more examples given in many of the comments submitted. Thus, contrary to your statement, the archbishop does not support all people fairly as he is supposed to do.
You seem overly sure and cocky that the archbishop is doing more than his fair share, but we know (look at the evidence) that this is only true with his Neo community and not to the rest of the faithful. Because you are a Neo, you will naturally feel that way because of the gushing exuberant support you get from the archbishop. I think it will benefit you as a Christian if you remove your Neo blinders and see how the rest of the faithful is being treated. I think you will be dismayed and shocked.
Let’s take a look at your next statement:
"Prove me wrong if you can, but until then stop baiting the trap for the unknowing to wander into and make terrible claims about. Most of it just isn't true, or taken completely out of context."
You neither offered evidence nor shown any kind of proof to back up your statement that Tim Rohr is just baiting the “unknowing to wander into and make terrible claims about.” You arrogantly presumed that those who read this Blog are not intelligent enough to discern and make up their own minds. Are you afraid of distilling the Truth? This Blog precisely does that, by becoming a forum to debate and exchange ideas and to call out any injustices that we know. It is useful and healthy that we do so. Otherwise, we become merely robots in our way of thinking and doing things. Freedom is one of Christ’s greatest gifts to us, and we are not free if we are open to what is happening around us and to us. Open your mind and heart Mr. “Get to it” and you may see what we see.
Peace and Courage!