Monday, June 2, 2014

MY CONVERSATION WITH DAVID G.

David G. is one of the saner representatives of the Neocatechumenal Way, at least as represented on this blog, so I found the following exchange with him rather useful.


  • Evil never appears as evil. Like Satan in the Garden, it appears as something good, it appears to make sense. It even bears fruit...for a time. Kiko declared war on the Holy Catholic Faith when he refused to comply with the Pope's 2005 instruction. He didn't just "disagree". He disobeyed and taught his millions to do the same. You are one.
  • Tim, you keep insisting that Kiko declared war, you keep insisting that he has disobeyed, but tell me why the Pope has not recognized this? Tell me why the investigation on the NCW was dropped? Tell me why YOU think you are smarter than our holy father? Do you think the Popes have failed? It is implied with what you are saying.
  • David, excellent example of Neo narcissism: Because we haven't been slapped yet, it must be okay. Do you know anything about history. Do you know how long and hard Pope Pius V worked behind the scenes to keep Henry VIII from splitting from the Church? Do you know anything about how the Church worked with Luther, Nestorius, Arius...? How do you know the investigation wasn't stopped because the object of the investigation was achieved and that Pope Francis opted for a more pastoral approach to the corrections needed than simply a severe disciplinary one. His talk to the Neos on Feb. 1 certainly indicated this, as well as his instruction to Kiko to conform to your charter. Stop being immature about it. Read your statute and tell us why you do not conform to it, not just about how you are getting away with not doing so.
  • Like I always say, you never know to the end. We do conform Tim. Accept it. And if we are wrong, I will admit that we are wrong.
  • 1. Does the priest communicate after he has distributed the consecrated host?
    2. Do you consume the host seated?
    3. Do you wait to consume the host till all have received?
  • David? David? Where'd you go, man? I'll check back in an hour or so.
  • You know the answers to the questions. Why should i reply?
  • You said "we do conform, accept it." You don't conform. You just admitted it.
  • To my knowledge we do. I will stand corrected when the Pope says so. I know you'll say "Because we haven't been slapped yet, it must be okay." Then you will claim me to be narcissist. The truth we be told in the end, if the NCW is really "disobeying" then thank you for trying your best to get it in our skulls. But I hope in return if you are wrong, you'll understand and accept it.
  • David. Let me try again. Suppose I am openly, publicly, and flagrantly receiving Holy Communion while I am in a state of mortal sin (such as living as an adulterer). Suppose the priest does not say anything to me and continues to allow me to receive communion. Have I not sinned because the priest has not told me that I have sinned, or have I sinned by the fact itself?

    Another scenario. Every day, sadly, many people excommunicate themselves from the Church for deliberately procuring an abortion or assisting someone in doing so. The Pope does not issue an edict of excommunication for these instances. One is excommunicated by the fact itself.

    Every Sunday, hundreds of priests, not just neos, take liberties with the liturgy not authorized by the Missal or its Instruction. Insofar as they do, they violate their "charter" every bit as much as you do. The pope does not have a police force to go around peeking into every liturgy. This is why the duty falls to the bishop who is the guardian of the liturgy (and of course the entire Catholic Faith) in his diocese.

    So while you are waiting for the Pope to spank your hands, the pope is actually waiting for the bishops to do their job. Some do. Ours doesn't. But regardless, intelligent faithful people should know what their Church requires and should question any priest who departs from those requirements.

    There may be things we do not know about, a special permission in some cases. If there is, then the priest has the duty to prevent scandal to educate his congregation. This is why we have simply asked our Archbishop to educate us. If there is a permission to deviate from your charter, then he is complicit in the sin of scandal for not teaching us. If there isn't said permission, then he is complicit in the flagrant violation of your charter.

  • At this point, the conversation ended. But perhaps we will take it up again. While I'd be curious as to how he would respond to my last point, we can pretty much guess that the stock answer of every Neo is: so long as the Pope hasn't stopped us what we do must be approved. It's an answer that I just don't find in the real world of responsible people.

    Recommendations by JungleWatch