Sunday, August 31, 2014

AND THESE PEOPLE LECTURE US ON OBEDIENCE?

This is a response to the report that a member of the Neocatechumenal Way was invited to give a testimony and announce a catechesis today at St. Joseph's Church in Inarajan at the 7:30AM Mass.

The commenter noted that the testimony occurred after the final blessing. If that is the case, this is still an abuse. So long as the priest is in the sanctuary we are still considered "at Mass", and the people are still bound to remain until he has left. Thus, if the testimony occurred after the final blessing and before the priest left the sanctuary, this is an abuse of both the Mass and the congregation.

Another commenter noted that the testimony occurred after the Prayer after Communion and before the final blessing - which is most probably the case. It is still an abuse. 

Redemptoris Sacramentum states that such an announcement or testimony by a lay person can be given only for "serious reasons". When used in an authoritative papal statement such as Redemptoris Sacramentum, the words "serious reasons" are not to be taken lightly. Yet these NCW testimonies and invitations are routinely inserted during the Mass, a clear violation of St. John Paul II's instruction in Redemptoris Sacramentum. And these people lecture us on OBEDIENCE?
REDEMPTIONIS SACRAMENTUM [74.] If the need arises for the gathered faithful to be given instruction or testimony by a layperson in a Church concerning the Christian life, it is altogether preferable that this be done outside Mass. Nevertheless, for serious reasons it is permissible that this type of instruction or testimony be given after the Priest has proclaimed the Prayer after Communion. This should not become a regular practice, however. Furthermore, these instructions and testimony should not be of such a nature that they could be confused with the homily,[156] nor is it permissible to dispense with the homily on their account.
On Sunday, February 9, 2014, Archbishop Apuron did not even wait until the Prayer after Communion, but personally invited the Neo-member to testify as part of his homily. 



50 comments:

  1. During the one of the morning mass this year at the Cathedral, one of the Neos were doing their testimony and was getting too long, The priest stood up and started the final blessing. This stopped further testimony...we all need to follow his example and stand up...

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  2. This is almost as if the archbishop was selling his CDs to the congregation before the mass is over! How does one even justify this?

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  3. I regularly attend the 11:30 mass at the Cathedral, and it wasn't until the last "invitation" that I lost all respect for the Archbishop. After proclaiming the Gospel, Fr. Michael invited the bishop (who was seated in the congregation with his "community") up to the Ambo,where he started to give his testimonial. It was what he said that disgusted me. Started out with the standard blah blah blah, then he mentioned how a few years ago he was very sick and almost died, but it was because of the prayers of "his community" that he was healed. He further went on to say the the Neo is not for everyone, just those who want to "become a better person." So I guess my prayers didn't mean anything to him? Also, because "the way" is not for me, does this mean I do not want to be a better person???

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    1. Pale' Anonymous(lol)September 1, 2014 at 11:04 AM

      I offered my daily masses to the Lord for our Archbishop's healing and recovery....Our parishes and our entire island, Archdiocese, friends and families also prayed for his health. Hmmm...I guess I gotta pray harder....

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    2. Please pray for his deteriorating mental health of our archbishop. Mental health will deteriorate further in the coming weeks as we will all see the serious state of affairs inside the Archdiocese of Agana. It is only a question of time now until the full extent of the truth is revealed to Guam and to Rome.

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  4. I regularly attend the 11:30 mass at the Cathedral, and it wasn't until the last "invitation" that I lost all respect for the Archbishop. After proclaiming the Gospel, Fr. Michael invited the bishop (who was seated in the congregation with his "community") up to the Ambo,where he started to give his testimonial. It was what he said that disgusted me. Started out with the standard blah blah blah, then he mentioned how a few years ago he was very sick and almost died, but it was because of the prayers of "his community" that he was healed. He further went on to say the the Neo is not for everyone, just those who want to "become a better person." So I guess my prayers didn't mean anything to him? Also, because "the way" is not for me, does this mean I do not want to be a better person???

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    1. And he didn't stop to think that maybe there were prayers for him from his non-neo community? And he joined because he wanted to become a better person? How long has he been in "the way" and we have yet to see this better person emerge.

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    2. In his early years with the NCW the archbishop seemed very happy and I heard many people speak of his kindnesses done for them whether they were NCW or regular Catholics. But this past year the archbishop seems hard and unhappy. The NCW has definitely damaged and distorted him. Since he started hurting Fr. Paul I never hear anyone speaking of the archbishop ministering to anyone. He's forgotten that being a priest means to be like Christ.

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  5. They should do this before or after mass. We do not want to sit around and listen to their problems and why they joined the NCW. Good for them, but leave our Church alone and find your own funding source for your extra curricular activities. Sunday is reserved for the Lord not Politricks.

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    1. They shouldn't be doing this in church period! If the purpose of the neo is to bring back the marginalized, they are looking in the wrong place. people in the pew are not "lost". If they are looking for the marginalized they need to out and start putting some wear on their shoes, but God forbid they have to go out in the hot sun and actually talk to people who don't want to hear what they have to say. Guess what neos? NEITHER DO WE! We come to Mass to worship and your shenanigans are interfering with it.
      Oh I forgot tho, they, like our protestant brothers think that we in the normal church are Lost!

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  6. How was the crowd at the 9:30 mass? Do we need to cut down the number of masses in Cathedral because the dwindling parishioners? Are we headed into a financial crisis because there are less donation in the collection basket?

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    1. I don't know what the attendance was at the 9:30 mass this past Sunday at the cathedral but I've observed that the attendance at the 11:30 mass is now at least 3 times as many attendees as the 9:30 mass.

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    2. I don't know what the attendance was at the 9:30 mass this past Sunday at the cathedral but I've observed that the attendance at the 11:30 mass is now at least 3 times as many attendees as the 9:30 mass.

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  7. CD he even ran after people to get money to produce that useless cd. Another story. But worth checking out the names of those who supported that production of a show. Yes, most of his episcopal life has been one show of fooling the catholic people of Guam. Guam you are the fools for allowing his show to go on.

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  8. What was the name of the nun who would sit in the kitchen of San Ramon preparing hair curlers and rollers to perm the hair of the archbishop? frightening

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  9. Anyone know how randy calvo friend of the archbishop is? Always used to be with the archbishop

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  10. This is what is called witnessing in the Southern Bapstist church. What are they doing posing as Catholics?

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    1. I was brought up Southern Baptist and was quite disgusted by the altar calls and people going up crying and sobbing in front of everyone. I was so happy when I became Catholic because, among other reasons, Catholics are dignified in mass and save their private emotions for the confessional or spiritual direction sessions with the clergy-UNTIL NOW.

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  11. It's sad to say, but I don't attend mass said by a Neo priest. I go to Msgr. James' 11:00 a.m. Tamuning mass, Fr. Richard's 8:00 a.m. Maina Mass, or any of the Capuchin masses.

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    1. Gerry, for now we are truly blessed to have other options in our mutual quest to avoid Masses offered by a Non-NCW priest. I believe one person commented that about 67% of currently active priests are from RMS, which means our options are already pretty slim. At the rate the RMS products are bring cranked out, it's only a matter of time before they will be everywhere! This is why I hope that members of other parishes will do as the proactive ones at St. Francis did, with the additional hope that the Archbishop will grant their respectful request(s), per his assurance that he has no intentions of of imposing the NCW — not just the movement, but also its presbyters — on anyone.

      I also pray that God, in His infinite Mercy and Love, will continue to provide a refuge for those of us who seek the Authentic Liturgy of our One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.

      God bless you!

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    2. Doomsday is coming. They have now invaded the south. in November there will be three more neo priest ordained. This means three more non neo priest are expendable. Filipino priest beware you will be axed. The church will not need your services. Caps you services will also be terminated. Yona and Tommy Tanaka get used to it. All non neo church you will be converted to NCW. Prepare yourselves to publicly confess your sins. Join the community, give up your family for them. Sell you cars and drive one like the Archbishop (oops). Tell me how you screwed around behind your wife. Tell me how you abused drugs. Tell me how you hunger sex with kids. Tell me how you want to suck the juice of young girls and spit them out when they are out of juice. Tell me that the local culture spends millions of dollars on food. Tell me that you can't have a mass for me when I die and buried at the veterans cemetery. Tell me how NCW saved you. Tell me how happy you are. I and the 144,000 non neo Catholics are really looking for this bullshit.

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    3. Well said 10.21am Marly Lou made an interesting point today. 67 per cent of clergy are now neo. Guam Catholics allowed this to evolve. Frankly, Guam is under a dictatorship of the worst kind in the history of the Island. Situation now calls for government , and private sector to stand up to the dictator. Time to take the law into our own hands and stop the dictator.

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    4. Roman Catholic Spiritual Warriors Needed.

      In July meeting on Guam Archbishop Martin Krebs archie's boss, declared WAR is happening within the church.

      Spiritual weapons and courageous truth speakers stand together.

      All point alert.

      Man and Woman your church homes for ensuring spiritual warfare.

      Anthem: We shall Overcome Kikos for the Glory of God and The Roman Catholic Church

      Ancestors we will not disappoint you.

      End of Story: Amen and Good Bless You with Hearts Filled with Gratitude

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    5. 67 percent inexperienced, poorly educated presbyters. Thanks for that interesting stat!

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  12. Funny how I came across this post in the blog "The Neochatecumenal Way, An Insider's View" (of all places!) and thought how it aptly fits what I see is the mission of Jungle Watch:

    In 1972 before the Knights of Columbus, Fulton Sheen stated:

    "Who is going to save our Church? Not our bishops, not our priests and religious. It is up to you, the people. You have the minds, the eyes, the ears to save the Church. Your mission is to see that your priests act like priests, your bishops, like bishops, and your religious act like religious.”

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  13. 8:30 Thank You. This says it all. And it is from a well known authority in the Catholic church who was a Real Practicing Catholic.

    Given these great words of wisdom, it would seem that Guam's Catholic Clergy Leaders show be embracing and lovingly thanking the people of Guam for being so faithful to their faith and religion.

    Forgive me if I am wrong in saying this. I perceive from reading the blog Father Eferon as being the most gracious and spiritually uplifting through this entire mess.

    The other non neo persecuted priests on Guam have not appeared to be in the least combative in any way compared to the neo priests including ARCHIE. Some have remained it silence and I am sure prayer.

    This must be an excruciating "dark night of the soul" experience both personally and professionally. With what has happened publicly to some of them professionally and what is happening within their beloved church. I dare say the other non neo priests who have not be publicly bashed have been privately persecuted with the on going neo push.

    Thank you again for sharing the kind wisdom that one can expect to come from a Real Catholic spiritual leader right along with the Pope. Although constantly being negatively targeted, it affirms Tim is on the Right Track and we are Right to support his efforts. Again Thank You!

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  14. Fr. Efren was well known as an academically gifted seminarian and priest. Not only the academics but he is a cultured individual, and has class about him. kind of priest we expect to see serving in the chancery.

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    1. 11:46AM I appreciate your kindness shedding some light on how Father Efren was a gifted academic seminarian and priest along with being a cultured individual. I must say that it is so nice and comforting to hear something positive, in the madness of all this activity.

      Aside from academics and culture, I would say Fr. Efren has managed to practice his faith on this blog with an elevated consciousness that is inspiring. That is the very action that I have greatly appreciated.

      With avalanches of on going muck being constantly revelealed about a so called Spiritual leader, and what appears no sign of rest anytime soon. Having a strong, uplifting, yet poignant spiritual prespective makes a big difference. It is like a light in the darkness to give one hope. For that I am truly grateful.

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    2. 4.19pm. To some degree you are correct. Observing what is happening pale Efren has the qualities required to assist Archbishop Apuron in the administration of the archdiocese.

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    3. Impression of Pale Efren is that right is right and wrong is wrong. strikes me as the kind of guy who will not waste his time with people who are fools.

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  15. One day the church on Guam will thank Tim Rohr for all he has done to protect the truth of the catholic faith. Without his hard work Guam would never have been made aware of the evil taking place.

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    1. Anonymous (September 1, 2014 at 11:51 AM), you are correct in acknowledging Tim's efforts. While there are many of us who frequent The Jungle and keep ourselves informed, I recently heard from some friends that there are still many "regular" Catholics who have no clue about "what all the fuss is about" and who "don't have time" to read what's on the Internet. Evidently, some people have only become aware of this battle for the Life of the Church in Guam via media coverage. An in-depth, investigative report might help raise awareness — of course, in the midst of the 2014 Election Season, it might be hard to find anyone willing to do this.

      So we must continue to spread the news ourselves — by word of mouth as well as posting links to JW posts on FB, via e-mail, and WhatsApp. There's also Twitter and Instagram (which I haven't learned to do yet).

      Let's help others grow in their knowledge, one step at a time, with one post at a time. After all — Knowledge Is Power!

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    2. What a great idea Mary Lou!!

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  16. Anonymous (September 1, 2014 at 8:30 AM), I found it interesting to note that parishes that are not yet NCW have a strong Knights of Columbus presence. Coincidence? Perhaps those Knights are taking Archbishop Fulton Sheen's comments to heart.

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  17. The Immaculate Heart of Mary in Toto does not have Knights of Columbus. We just have simple people, and we are strong. URAH!

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  18. Perhaps it is groups like the Knights and Immaculate Heart that work as the Spiritual Warriors needed within church for defense against the tyranny that is occurring.

    I would further add this blog as having a committed collective consciousness for the good of the Holy Catholic Church and Guam's Catholic's.

    This makes me think of something else. I don't know if anyone would agree or if it would be something Tim would even consider to. I thought about all the extreme negativity that we expose ourselves to here, and how more is revealed daily that does not seem to be letting up anytime soon. I know for me I would not normally let such a barrage of negativity enter into my consciousness. I actually choose not to watch television preferring to read books and enjoying my quite time.

    i do know that deep feelings of unimaginable disappointment and unbelief about the leader of the Guam's Roman Catholic Church and faith in him is greatly affecting many people. After all it is touching us at the very core of our Spiritual Faith.

    For the most part it appears blogger's emotions are well balanced showing real concern. While others have displayed extreme hostility and not a clear understanding of the issues.

    I do not like to admit this but I think it is only natural, something like this can turn people away from the church. Perhaps it goes against their personal principals, and values, their very integrity, not to mention the Church's teachings.

    I don not know if it is possible but I thought it might be nice to have a blessings at the end of the blogs threads. or at the beginning as a simple reminder:
    Let the negativity go rather than dwell on it give it up to God.
    While with others have emotionally balanced discussions instead of gossip
    Look for solutions don't just condemn.

    And just pray more for the divine intervention
    and the right way to resolve this huge challenge
    and for all the people involved and the Catholic's island wide
    Uniting in payer and action will help lift us all out of this very messy situation.
    Just sharing a prayerful thought

    I greatly appreciate all Tim's hard work and on going efforts and bloggers contributions to create the necessary climate of change. God bless you.

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    1. Your suggestion is well-taken, and in fact, I have been contemplating a post on this very issue. I have often addressed it in the past, but it needs to be continually addressed. The real problem, of course, is that many are putting their faith in the wrong place, an idea of an institution, a priest, a bishop. I was careful to say "an idea of an institution" because it is the "idea" of what we expect the church to be that is the danger. The Church, Herself, is the Bride of Christ, and can never disappoint or be unholy. Unfortunately we are dealing with at least two generations of a severe lack of genuine and orthodox catechesis, so explaining things this way is probably not well understood. I don't know about the prayer at the beginning of each post. Simply praying for unity would probably be naively understood. Truth is what we are after. Let me think about it.

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    2. 9.51am and 10.28am. Opportunities in these comments. May be an open monthly meeting where readers can come together for coffee and meet others who study the Jungle. Small pockets of knights and Dames supporting the true church can be formed. People to be activated. It is not enough just to come to the Jungle to post. Must be followed up with action to support the cause.

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    3. I agree. Let's do it. There is one group which already does this.

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    4. What's the schedule of this group.

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    5. 4.47pm. Get a small coffee group together begin the group and others will join. Remember it all begins with two or three people to further our faith and ecclesial understanding. Create a forum for authentic catholic teaching and how can apply this teaching in our life. The coffee shop is a great place to,conduct informal ministry!

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    6. I am 9:51 I sincerely apologize for the multitude of errors evident within my blog.
      10:48 I love how you stated we study the Jungle. Often bloggers have wrongly made inference to us worshiping Tim which has concerned me. I don't even know him I am simply concerned about what is happening within the church.

      I think the idea of meeting is powerful. It has the potential to create a very supportive energy for brainstorming solutions. It would be taking steps to build bridges which is what was recommended as a solution.

      I think it needs to be thought through carefully. My only caution would be to have some clear guidelines for people who may allow emotions to go unchecked.

      If Neo's attend that would change the dynamics. There would be two different cultures that need equal respect. Someone learned would need to be present, who is not only intelligent and well versed in the church but who does not display bias.

      Whatever the outcome, God is Good. With pure intentions for the highest good of Guam's Catholic church and her people solutions will reveal themselves.

      I think these intentions demonstrate people who have a great faith love and devotion for the teachings of the church and are committed to action with prayerful integrity.

      I know there has been not time to consider outcomes and I obviously don't know, but do you think this is the kind of outcome Archbishop Krebs had in mind to build bridges. And as you progress along these lines of unity he just maybe open to be consulted if need be.

      May God bestow all involved and all your work to be undertaken with many great blessings.

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  19. Very simple. What we do is small group meets in Starbucks very informal and we post an issue a head of time and come with ideas to discuss. Sometimes we ask a priest to give a ten minute informal reflection, or a member of congress to join us, or a showniz personality. Then in small groups we discuss theological issues facing the community. In this particular case it would be to discuss problems in the local church. People are free to come and go. The concept really works and best to keep it informal. In the group I attend it attracts professionals young drs, lawyers, artists. Very positive. If this can evolve on Guam I feel it is a positive step of building bridges. And yes young NEO members should be free to also join Starbucks groups. It is a positive way of reaching out to everyone. If people are interested lets is show interest on this page.

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    1. Who is we meet and at what Starbucks location?

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    2. Theology on tap can be any location 12.44. As I said professional young cultured people who desire to live and study the faith of the church, scripture, tradition, the early church fathers, even controversial issues are welcome . Faith and culture is of what is importan and having open mind and spirit to discover truth.

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  20. The same thing happend at our San Dionisio Parish this past Sunday!
    After Father Luis Camacho gave the homily, Dave Atienza was introduced as the leader of the community and invited to the ambo to "make an announcement." His announcement was more of a testimony of how his life was "hell" and through the neo way he found God. Now he is blessed with a beautiful life, with a wife and 8 children. He proclaims the neo way is what saved him from otherwise would be a life of hell. Personally, I'm happy for you Mr. Atienza. I'm glad that you finally found how important God needs to be in your life. For some of us, we were born into and baptized believing in God and taught that God gives us what we can handle, and to offer our sufferings to Him.

    As if that wasn't enough, just before the final blessing, Father Luis said he had one more announcement which he claimed was to respond to a question addressed to him by a parishioner. The question asked was, "why continue pushing the neo way with everything that's happening in our Church?" Father Luis responded by giving still another testimony on the altar. He started by telling a story of a couple, the man from Saipan and the woman from Piti, who were on the edge of getting a divorce. The wife wanted to do everything she could to save her marriage and was willing to try anything and decided to join the neo. Miraculously, their marriage was SAVED! This couple had children who could have turned to a life of drugs, alcohol, or mischief as a result of the troubled marriage....but they didn't. In fact, one of their sons became a priest! Smiling at the altar, Father Luis waved at the parish and stated, "I am the priest." (Father Luis that was quite a creative way of giving your own testimony as a Priest). He closed by saying that he loves the Neo way and that's why he believes in it.
    Father Luis, I'm happy that your parents found a way to save their marriage. I'm happy that you found the priesthood as your way of life.......
    Now you need to ask yourself as a priest and the leader of our parish, are you able to attend to your parish as a whole? Are you listening and connecting with your parish, or focused on establishing your "Community" as you refer to them?
    Don't separate us! We are small parish and can't afford for you, the Archbishop, or your "Community" to drive us apart with all the neo ways of practicing our faith.

    By the way, Father Paul Gofigan has roots in Umatac, so you need to be careful how you cram your neo ways into our village. The neos will not challenge our faith. If you really are looking out for the good of our San Dionisio Parish, then listen to us with open ears and an open heart. Not just your neo way! Remember in order for you to be in charge of our parish you will need our people to attend. Your numbers will dwindle down to the few and then what? Who will you be preaching to? Your handful of Community members? The rest of us, which is a strong number, would rather travel to attend masses with our Capuchin priests or the "targeted Diocesan priests" who choose not follow the neo way. At least we know that we can celebrate the Holy Eucharist in true prayer, as a Catholic family with all our Catholic brothers and sisters, without the distractions of testimonies and "community" alerts!

    To our neighboring southern parish of Inarajan, let us know when you are circulating your petition! If it helps your voice, we will help you circulate the petition against this neo movement!

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    1. I believe 12:04 PM makes a very valid point in that posting. This person was not malicious in the observations that were addressed by the Umatac Priest or Atienza and seemed genuinely happy for both of them that they found their way to God and that the neo movement helped them personally and spiritually. BUT, we "regular" Catholics are also happy with our traditional practices and customs of HOLY MOTHER CHURCH and are not in need to be fulfilled spiritually or personally by the neo-movement. So please respect us and our WAY, "Stop preaching to the Choir" - we have never been lost... we have always known that CHRIST is our LORD and SAVIOR...and yes, just as HE suffered in this temporal world, so will we all carry our crosses and suffer (very minutely I might add compared to HIM). PLEASE neo-followers stop "Preaching to the Choir", wash your face and suffer in silence and give it all up to GOD, because only through HIM can we ever find true PEACE, HOPE and CHARITY! Never place your trust in a mere man especially one named KIKO Aguello!

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  21. 12.44. let me know the theological areas of faith that interest you for dialogue. As I say we are not neo but neo are also welcome to join.

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  22. Note on the above discussion about a developing a study group. I've been hosting such a group for about ten years and it immensely enriching. However, it is also dangerous as it is easy to get off into personal interpretations or feelings. I would recommend staying with a text. We started off with the Beginning Apologetics series which can be ordered from San Juan Seminars. There are currently 9 books in the series. They are really easy to read and understand and make for great conversation as well as covering all the basics. We then moved on to reading through the Catechism. Each person takes a paragraph and when we run into something interesting we discuss it or research it further using the footnotes. This allows me to simply facilitate and not teach, since I wouldn't be qualified to do so anyway. The church does the teaching and when someone needs more information than we can discover on our own, they can seek out the help of a pastor. We meet once a week for an hour. I would recommend keeping the group to 5 or 6.

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  23. This is 9:51. here and I am dizzy from spinning all over the place.

    Tim at 10:28 I am glad to hear you too have been contemplating a post along similar lines and will at least consider doing something.

    10:48. You suggest informal monthly meetings, for Jungle readers and others at Starbucks. To post issues ahead of time for discussions. Invite a priest and or a politician, celebrity, to reflect for 10 mins. Suggests small group theology discussions based on community concerns. For Guam issues are our church. Group attracts professionals, is a positive outreach and could help build bridges.

    5:21. You describe young professionals, faith and culture important. Study the faith of the church, scripture, tradition, the early church fathers, controversial issues are welcome, open mind and spirit required to discover truth.

    5:58. Requests theological areas of interests. We are not neo's but neo's are welcome.

    Tim at 6:19. Mentions a study group. He has been hosting a group for 10 years that is very enriching. Easy for group to get off track with personal opinions or feelings. Recommends a text for focus. Suggested Apologetics and Catechism as easy reads. Group share reading a paragraph. Meet weekly for one hour. Group size 5-6

    The idea and possibility certainly seems very exciting. I think they are all good suggestions although they differ. Being small groups perhaps there could be two groups who resonate with with people's time and needs.

    My suggestion is that when you decide on the initial meeting time and place, be sure to have an open mind and heart as to what may present itself for people currently and for the evolution of Guam's Catholic community under the current circumstances.

    Guam 2000 census put Guam's average reading level at a 4th grade standard. I can't help but think how some Catholics who love their faith and church, who would like to be part of the solution and who want to know more, just may not be college graduates living affluent lives.

    Instead they could be elderly, poor or high school dropouts. They could be teens, college students or single moms. Some may not feel comfortable around well educated young or old professionals, but they feel comfortable in their parish church.

    If such people show a desire for community involvement, I would hope they too would be supported to have a group to meet their unique individual needs.

    There are different ethnic groups who are Catholic who may surprise you by their strength in numbers and faith.

    If different groups meet they may have different ideas or suggestions. Of course I realize that for right now it would just entail getting one group off the ground.

    Can that be announced at church too? As the saying goes. Just saying

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