Posted by Frenchie
The Catholic Church forbids Catholics to join Freemasonry because it is considered incompatible with the Church Faith and Doctrine.
This is a pretty strong statement, but this is the reality for Catholics since the appearance of this sectarian philosophy back in the early 18th century.
This prohibition stems from free masonry philosophical and religious tenets, which the Catholic Church views as containing errors and being in conflict with Catholicism.
This is actually a fairly diplomatic position, since as some former grand masters have revealed, one of the main goals of freemasonry is the destruction of the Church.
Here are the reasons why the Church is unequivocal about free Masonry
1) Religious indifferentism: the Church teaches that Freemasonry promotes the idea that all religions are equally valid and that truth can be found in any faith, a concept called Religious Indifferentism. This conflicts with the Catholic belief that Jesus Christ is the one true path to salvation.
2) Rival Religion: According to the Catholic Encyclopedia, Freemasonry displays the elements of a religion, including Temples, Altars, prayers, and rites and therefore becomes a rival to the Christian Faith.
3) Secrecy and oaths: freemasonry secret oaths, which can include threats of gruesome punishment for revealing its secrets, are seen as contrary to Christian Morals and public Christian Principles.
4) Conflicting Philosophy: Freemasonry emphasis on "enlightment" through reason and rationality is seen as a secular, naturalistic philosophy that is at odds with Catholic Teachings on Faith, Divine Revelation and Grace.
5) Anti-Catholic Sentiment: Historically, certain forms of Freemasonry have held Anti-Catholic views, and the Church has noted that some Masonic teachings and practices, such as viewing the Pope as an "impostor", are fundamentally opposed to Catholic doctrine.
Status of the Prohibition
The ban on Freemasonry has first been issued in 1738 and reaffirmed by numerous Popes since then.
1983 Code of Canon Law: The 1983 revision of the code of Canon Law removed specific mentions of Freemasonry, leading to some confusions about the ban's status.
Reaffirmation of the Ban: In the same year the Vatican issued a declaration clarifying that the prohibition remained in effect. The declaration stated that Catholics that joined Masonic Associations are in a state of grave sin and cannot received Holy Communion.
Continued Clarification: The Vatican has continued to reaffirm this position, most recently in a 2023 letter from the Dicastery for the Doctrine of the Faith, which explicitly stated that active membership is forbidden and those who join are in a state of grave sin.
As you see, it is very clear to all but the blind, the deaf and the stupid, that being a freemason is not possible for Catholics, and that any person who does this is in a State of Grave Sin.
The question, for the Catholic Church in Guam is therefore very relevant.
If one watches in passing the back bumpers of other cars in traffic, you will notice without too much difficulty a fairly sizeable number of Masonic symbols on said cars. I first noticed this when I first moved to Guam, and I was quite surprised to see so many Masonic signs. After consulting with several friends, I was told many people associated with Masons were hailing from the Philippines. But in observing closely, I also noticed in my parish, and in other parishes I visited occasionally that several CHamoru, some with strong clan affiliation, were obviously active in Lodges. Which leads us to this next picture.
Next: unravelling the web of lies.
Has their parochial administrators spoken to them yet?
ReplyDeleteAs far as I know no one has said anything to Tony . It appears that Msg James has send an indirect warning to Tony , through the current lieutenant of the Knights of the holy Sepulcre of Jerusalem, whose order also includes Tony. For Joe, the former Pastor of our Lady of Lourdes, did at least on 2 occasions, preach from the Pulpit, about the grave Sin of belonging to freemasonry. I also have personaly seen parishioners confront the senator directly, to no avail.
ReplyDeleteThe current administrator father Val has done nothing despite being in the know. In fact , he has encouraged Joe's spouse to become a lector, and sit with him in the front row
I understand the history you shared, but many of the claims you listed do not match what Freemasonry is today or how members actually live here on Guam.
ReplyDeleteFreemasonry is not a religion. It does not teach a new path to salvation and it does not replace any faith. The words and symbols used in the lodge are traditions that teach good character, not religious worship.
The idea that Masons want to destroy the Church comes from very old political fights in Europe. Those events do not reflect the goals of modern lodges or the everyday members you see in our community.
If we look at what is happening today, many Masons in Guam and the Philippines are practicing Christians. They attend church, support parish events, and help their communities. Their actions do not show any hatred or agenda against the Church.
If we want to talk about the local situation honestly, we should look at real behavior, not assumptions based on old conflicts. Freemasonry today focuses on charity, self-improvement, and being a good citizen. Nothing in that teaches people to attack any religion.
Before calling people “in grave sin,” it is only fair to understand what the fraternity actually teaches now and how its members live. The facts today do not match the accusations from the past.
How does one find out what Freemasonry "teaches now?" Is there a document? Is it available publicly? Or does one have to join to learn?
DeleteYou actually don’t need to join Freemasonry to see what it teaches today. Most of the info is public. Grand Lodges post their values, rules, and programs right on their websites. Many lodges also hold open houses or community events where anyone can ask questions.
DeleteIf someone wants to know what Masonry is really about now, the easiest way is to look at those sources or talk to actual members. What the fraternity does today is much clearer than relying on old stories or assumptions.
Perhaps you can provide the links
DeleteBTW, your argument is not with Frenchie.Your argument is with the Catholic Church which officially prohibits membership in Freemasonry per the references Frenchie sets out above.
DeleteThe Catholic Church's most recent condemnation of Freemasonry was in 1983, hardly "old." See: Irreconcilability between Christian faith and Freemasonry
Deletehttps://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_19850223_declaration-masonic_articolo_en.html
Tim, I understand your point. The Church has its official stance, and that is fine. But if we are going to use official Church documents, then it is also fair to ask for official Masonic documents when people make claims about what Freemasonry teaches.
DeleteThe Vatican link shows the Church’s view. It does not explain what Freemasonry actually teaches today. Those are two different things.
So before anyone repeats statements like “Masonry promotes religious indifferentism” or “Masonry wants to destroy the Church,” there is a simple request. Show the current Masonic document that says this. Not second-hand opinions. Not old conspiracy stories. Not selective history. A real, official source from a Grand Lodge.
Freemasonry has constitutions, obligations, and published rules that are publicly available. Anyone can read them. There is no secret doctrine waiting to be uncovered.
If someone wants to make a claim about Masonic teachings, the burden of proof is on the person making the claim. The Church’s view only shows what the Church believes about Masonry. It does not prove what Masonry teaches.
I am open to reviewing any official Masonic document that supports these accusations. If we are going to have a serious discussion, then we should use primary sources from both sides. That is the only fair way to talk about this.
So in other words, the Catholic Church is wrong.
DeleteTim, that conclusion is not supported by what I stated. I did not assert that the Church is wrong. I clarified a simple point of scope. The Church is fully entitled to define its own doctrine. It is not entitled to define Freemasonry’s internal teachings.
DeleteIf someone is making a claim about what Freemasonry teaches, then the proper standard is to cite official Masonic sources, not a third party’s interpretation. This is a basic requirement of evidence. The Church’s judgment explains the Church’s position. It does not function as proof of Freemasonry’s doctrine.
My request remains the same: if an allegation is being made about Masonic teaching, please provide the primary Masonic document that establishes it. Without that, the claim is unsupported.
I don't care to engage the issue any further. Maybe Frenchie will. For now the Catholic Church holds that membership in Freemasonry is irreconcilable with the Christian Faith. Until the Church changes its position, I'm sticking with the Catholic Church. Good luck to you.
Delete"Now more thorough study has led the S.C.D.F. to confirm its conviction of the basic irreconcilability between the principles of Freemasonry and those of the Christian faith." - Irreconcilability between Christian faith and Freemasonry, Sacred Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, 1983
And actually since you are such a staunch supporter of Freemasonry with nothing to hide, there is no reason to be "Anonymous." Let us know who we are talking to.
DeleteI understand the history you shared, but many of the claims you listed do not match what Freemasonry is today or how members actually live here on Guam.
ReplyDeleteFreemasonry is not a religion. It does not teach a new path to salvation and it does not replace any faith. The words and symbols used in the lodge are traditions that teach good character, not religious worship.
The idea that Masons want to destroy the Church comes from very old political fights in Europe. Those events do not reflect the goals of modern lodges or the everyday members you see in our community.
If we look at what is happening today, many Masons in Guam and the Philippines are practicing Christians. They attend church, support parish events, and help their communities. Their actions do not show any hatred or agenda against the Church.
If we want to talk about the local situation honestly, we should look at real behavior, not assumptions based on old conflicts. Freemasonry today focuses on charity, self-improvement, and being a good citizen. Nothing in that teaches people to attack any religion.
Before calling people “in grave sin,” it is only fair to understand what the fraternity actually teaches now and how its members live. The facts today do not match the accusations from the past.
Are you directing "Before calling people "in grave sin" to the Church. I ask because she has been very clear in stating that, "Precisely by considering all these elements, the Declaration of the Sacred Congregation affirms that membership in Masonic associations «remains forbidden by the Church», and the faithful who enrolls in them «are in a state of grave sin and may not receive Holy Communion».
DeleteMy name is not the issue here. The point stands no matter who says it. If someone is confident about their claims on Freemasonry, then they should be able to back them up with real Masonic sources.
ReplyDeleteAsking for evidence is not hiding. It is simply keeping the conversation honest. If the claims are true, the documents will show it. Let’s focus on facts, not who is posting
I can't tell you how many times this happens. As soon as I ask who wants to talk with me, I get what you just posted. So never mind. If you don't have the courage to use your name as I do, then I'm not interested.
DeleteYour interest in names is noted, but it has nothing to do with the substance of the discussion. Courage is not measured by whether someone posts a name online. It is measured by whether a person can stand on facts, stay respectful, and stay on topic.
DeleteYou asked for clarity. I gave clear points and asked for evidence. If the conversation stops because I prefer to stay anonymous, that is your choice, not a lack of courage on my part.
If you ever want to discuss the actual claims with sources, I’m still here for that.
Imagine the Declaration of Independence being signed "Anonymous."
DeleteTim, the strength of an argument is measured by the facts behind it, not the name attached to it. The Declaration of Independence carried weight because of the principles it stated, not just the signatures. In the same way, what matters here is the accuracy of the information, not whether a comment has a name on it.
DeleteIf the point is solid, it stands on its own. If it needs a name to feel valid, then the issue isn’t the name, it’s the argument.
I get what you’re trying to say, but this topic is not about hiding behind anonymity. It’s about understanding what Freemasonry actually teaches today instead of relying only on old assumptions. The information is public, and anyone can look it up.
DeleteIf the goal is an honest discussion, the focus should be on facts, not comparisons that don’t really fit the situation.
Spoken like a politician. Oh, wait a minute... :)
DeleteThe latest direction from the Holy See actually is from 2023 and it reiterated the 1983 advice and encouraged catechetical outreach about the matter. I quote in full here, but see my post linked in Frenchie's post for the actual statement.
ReplyDeleteDICASTERIUM PRO DOCTRINA FIDEI
NOTE FOR THE AUDIENCE WITH THE HOLY FATHER
13 November 2023
The Request of His Excellency, the Most Rev. Julito Cortes,
Bishop of Dumaguete (Philippines)
Regarding the Best Pastoral Approach to
Membership in Freemasonry by the Catholic Faithful
Recently, His Excellency, the Most Rev. Julito Cortes, Bishop of Dumaguete, after explaining with concern the situation caused in his Diocese by the continuous rise in the number of the faithful enrolled in Freemasonry, asked for suggestions regarding how to respond to this reality suitably from a pastoral point of view, taking into account also the doctrinal implications related to this phenomenon.
Membership in Freemasonry is very significant in the Philippines; it involves not only those who are formally enrolled in Masonic Lodges but, more generally, a large number of sympathizers and associates who are personally convinced that there is no opposition between membership in the Catholic Church and in Masonic Lodges.
To address this issue appropriately, it was decided that the Dicastery would respond by involving the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of the Philippines itself, notifying the Conference that it would be necessary to put in place a coordinated strategy among the individual Bishops that envisions two approaches:
(a) On the doctrinal level, it should be remembered that active membership in Freemasonry by a member of the faithful is forbidden because of the irreconcilability between Catholic doctrine and Freemasonry (cf. Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, “Declaration on Masonic Associations” [1983], and the guidelines published by the Catholic Bishops’ Conference of the Philippines in 2003). Therefore, those who are formally and knowingly enrolled in Masonic Lodges and have embraced Masonic principles fall under the provisions in the above-mentioned Declaration. These measures also apply to any clerics enrolled in Freemasonry.
(b) On the pastoral level, the Dicastery proposes that the Philippine Bishops conduct catechesis accessible to the people and in all parishes regarding the reasons for the irreconcilability between the Catholic Faith and Freemasonry.
Finally, the Philippine Bishops are invited to consider whether they should make a public pronouncement on the matter.
Ex Audientia die 13.11.2023
Franciscus
VĂctor Manuel Card. Fernández
Prefect
Thanks for posting the full text. I read it carefully. What I see is that the 2023 note is focused on internal Catholic guidance, not on defining Freemasonry itself. It tells bishops in the Philippines how to teach Catholics about the Church’s position. That is an internal matter for the Church, and I respect that.
DeleteBut it is also clear that the document is not presenting new evidence about Freemasonry. It simply repeats the Church’s long-held view and asks bishops to explain it better. It does not claim to speak for Freemasonry, and it does not describe what Masonry actually teaches in its own constitutions.
So I understand the Church’s stance. At the same time, when talking about Freemasonry’s teachings, I look directly at official Masonic documents, not another institution’s interpretation. That keeps the discussion grounded in primary sources on both sides.
Well, well, well, at least one apologist for freemasonry has appeared as anonymous of course. But none the less, our "courageous" contradictor has come out trying to justify freemasonry which has been consistently condemned by every Pope for the last 300 years.
ReplyDeleteOf course we are "explained" the relativism of the issue. Notwithstanding the fact that relativism is a sin in itself.
This reminds me the Neocats arguments that you cannot criticize unless you have walk in their steps. A fallacious argument for weak minded Catholics that have not grasp their own religion. An unfortunate but common issue.
The parallel with other apologists is striking, we are used to hear these arguments regarding abortion, euthanasia or LGBTQ+ issues. This in itself should not be surprising since they are some of the societal issues advanced relentlessly by lodges around the world since at least the 1880s.
(note that I use societal, rather than social)
Our contradictor of course glosses over the core issues of the dispute with freemasonry as being part of an old dispute that is no longer current in the "modern lodges". In arguing this, or in denying the issue, he of course brushes aside with a poorly executed PR the real struggle of lodges against the Church.
Unfortunately, despite these assertions, little has changed over the last 3 centuries, and the termite work of the masons continues unrelented.
I had been waiting patiently to see what the reaction to this article would generate. I guess a coordination of minds had to take place before an articulated distraction could be brought forth.
Let's not be distracted by modern PR communication gimmick. Freemasonry is as dangerous as it ever was, some would argue even more dangerous since it has learned to present a facade of pseudo respectability.
The 800lb gorilla in the room being the secret oaths, the degrees of initiation and the secretive directives put forth.
I did not assert that members of Freemasonry was a state of grave sin, the Church has affirmed it for centuries. There are no deviations and no evolutions of any kind.
At least, we now have an inkling of what communication we are gonna be subjected to, during the upcoming election.
Let's pray that our local spiritual leaders find the courage and perspicacity to oppose this continuous attack against unsuspicious Catholics. The state of our souls is at stake.
Frenchie, the problem with your post is not passion, it is accuracy. You keep repeating that “every Pope for 300 years” taught the exact same thing with no distinction, no nuance, and no development, but that is simply not how Catholic teaching works. Disciplines evolve, contexts change, and the Church itself has acknowledged this on countless issues. Treating history as frozen in place is not theology, it is oversimplification.
DeleteYou also assume that bringing up conscience, lived experience, or the reality of modern lodges is “PR,” which only shows that you are unwilling to engage the actual argument. Labeling any disagreement as relativism is not a rebuttal. It is a way to avoid answering valid points.
And your comparisons to abortion, euthanasia, and LGBTQ issues fall apart because you are mixing doctrinal moral teachings with a disciplinary judgment rooted in political conflicts from past centuries. Those are not equivalent categories in Catholic theology, and pretending they are does not make the argument stronger.
Calling Masons termites or secret agents in a centuries-long plot reveals more about your assumptions than about the fraternity. Modern lodges operate publicly, support charity, and include Catholics who serve their parishes faithfully. Ignoring that reality does not make it disappear.
You can repeat “no change in 300 years,” but repeating something does not turn it into doctrine. Catholic theology is richer than slogans, and conscience before God cannot be replaced by fear, suspicion, or rhetoric.
That is the weakness in your argument, and that is why it does not stand.
Lodges are consistent in their approach to opposition. Reverse accusatorial, in the context of Deny, Deflect and Destroy. Nothing new.
DeleteThey always find impressionable, well-meaning tormented souls willing to do their bidding. You are the perfect example of this. You know, you are having a problem, because the Church has been steadfast. This is the reason you advance the modernist argument of things evolving and perpetually changing. You claim the Church has acknowledged this, but you are confusing willingness to engage false teachings, with acquiescence. You pretend that I am not accurate, yet you continue "ad nauseum" to try to deflect my and others statement about Canon Law, Church Doctrine and documentations with revisionist theology. You keep referencing to "past judgements from past centuries" in order to try to debunk Doctrine; knowing full well that these attacks like abortion, Euthanasia and LGBTQ issues are still initiatives born in lodges and advanced by the networks of the Masons. You claim that the lodges are benevolent fraternities doing good social deeds, but you gloss over the constant attacks on the Church by freemasons, including but not limited to sending the FBI to spy on Catholic Communities and listing Traditional Catholics as White Christian Nationalists posing a great danger to the country.
You, argument Doctrine which has not changed in over 2000 years and was handed down to us by Christ himself, against what you term as Catholic theology, without explaining what this Theology is in your eyes, outside of picking and choosing what fits your narrative, and pretending the rest does not matter. This confirms what another comment pointed out, about the arrogance and pride of your position, which prevents you to see the truth of God's teachings.
We are not here to do character assassination, but to give you an opportunity to go back to God's teaching. Short of that, try to at least stop pretending you are a good Catholic, and that the Church is wrong. This is the definition of heresy