Friday, February 17, 2017

APURON'S ATTORNEY PERMITTED, BUT NOT HIS VICTIMS'

Roland Sondia not permitted to testify with his lawyer present, but okay if Apuron's lawyer is present. Perhaps this is why the proceedings were supposed to be secret.


Janet B - MangilaoFebruary 17, 2017 at 5:58 AM
Dakun Tenorio seen leaving Chancery after a tribunal meeting. I wonder if fist pumping Fr OJ was there to coach him?

Funny that the victim isn't allowed to have his lawyer present but the accused had his attorney there. I'm still having a hard time figuring out the logic in coming all the way to Guam but not speaking to the one Apuron victim living here. I guess it only makes sense to the Vatican.

The real question remains. Is this merely a mock trial or is Burke serious in learning the truth? If it's the truth they're after then I hope they also deal with financial issues and mismanagement issues.

Deacon Martinez was there in the morning. I hope he let them have a dose of the realities beyond Apurun 's rape charges.

We'd love to find out but they cannot say anything. Every time they've got something to say some high up in the Church slaps a gag order to hide the truth. Will the Church ever come out of its clandestine shadows?

It is the only way people will start to trust the Church that is so damaged in reputation.

41 comments:

  1. I'll say it again: Burke cannot be trusted! He's on Apuron's side and covering for Rome. All he wants to do is regain his lofty Vatican position.

    If I were Sondia, I wouldn't have said a word to Burke unless my lawyer was present. He compromised his legal rights. His words will be twisted to Rome's advantage and no one can disprove the lies!

    How much material information given to Burke will be ruled as inadmissible in Sondia's civil case, and why? This thing reeks.

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    1. Rose de los Reyes (Seattle, WA)February 17, 2017 at 7:42 AM

      Mr. Sondia didn't testify because his counsel, Mr. Lujan, was not allowed to be present at the proceedings. Instead, upon the advise of Mr. Lujan, Roland will provide an affidavit (his written testimony, if you will) to be part of the tribunal's record.

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    2. The "tribunal's record" is the problem. Corrupt Rome is the only witness to it.

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    3. Until there's real evidence, I'd hold off on the "Burke = stooge" statement. The man has taken on the Vatican powers that be repeatedly and has lost every time to that silence and corruption. For him to cover for Apuron is defies logic. The fact that he openly defends the TLM has already made him an army of enemies. God bless him.

      Once possibility: by sending him here, Burke is intended to be put in an untenable situation. If as the judge he finds for Apuron, the the Vatican can accuse him of covering up for pedophiles, and if he rules against Apuron, then his fate is sealed as an antagonist of Filoni and enemy of the trend of the Church right now. Imagine a Vatican III scenario: he would be put in a position of enemy of the Pope, even though he's not

      Forget this whole return to power--if he wanted that, he never would have affixed his name to the dubia.

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    4. Burke had nothing to lose when he signed the dubia. His career was in the toilet and he didn't know he'd be sent to Guam.

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    5. Glaucon. It's the second one.

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    6. Career in the toilet? Can I just be that one person that says that Burke is not about a "career" rather about the truth. He is still ordained no matter what crap shack Rome assigns him into. To me, he has already won. But all this is beside the point .....

      This is about a real true spiritual and material battle within our Church. Satan is not going to build an army of demons and initiate an ILM like battle akin to a Dr Strange sequel. He has recruited the useful idiots like the Kikos, Bugninis Kaspers and Marx who have infiltrated the Church.

      It's easy to get caught up into the politics of it all, but sticking to our liturgy, our rosaries, our tenets, and the Eucharist means being firm in the foundations of our faith and being able to root out who is of the faithful and who is for the dark prince.

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    7. Burke is the only Cardinal who faced NCW with Pope Benedict stopping their liturgy auto-approval and allowing him to start the Feria IV investigation. Unluckily, children of darkness are smarter...

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    8. True, Sandavi. Whoever you are.

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  2. no wonder Burke has got his hand on his head and i doubt it is to fix his red whatever you call it.is that really true Janet?...David,Melbourne

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    1. Burke's red beanie is called a zucchetto. The Pope wears a white one.

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  3. This "show" is there to appease the people. Do not be fooled. There is an agenda to their "investigation." Like Mr. Lujan states, the catholic church has been doing this type of thing for centuries. Why should they change? Keep your guard up, folks. St. Michael defend us all.

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    Replies
    1. Bingo, 8:20 AM! Rome absolutely cannot be trusted. The only infallible thing about the Vatican is its unfailing deceit.




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  4. Those complaining about the “secrecy” of the canon law trial process of the Church should know that this is how it is done in most of the world.

    Civil Law countries follow this procedure. Common Law countries (based on English legal tradition) have the more open system to which we are accustomed in the USA.

    But our system is not without its problems. Jury nullification is one of the biggest, especially in close-knit communities. And the public relations skill of the lawyers can affect the outcomes more in common-law proceedings than top-down inquisitorial ones.

    Civil Law is more judge-centered, while Common Law is about the lawyers.

    Both have their advantages. Neither is inherently superior in reaching the truth.

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  5. “Roland Sondia not permitted to testify with his lawyer present, but okay if Apuron's lawyer is present.”

    First of all, his lawyer is not a “lawyer” in the sense of being trained and admitted to practice canon law. He is not a member of that “bar”, no different than you or any non-lawyer.

    Secondly, a witness is not a party to the proceedings, just like any criminal prosecution in the U.S.

    Third, the canon lawyer of Apuron is balanced by the canon lawyer prosecutor. So the situation is not as one-sided as you imply.

    Finally, a witness has the choice whether to testify orally or in writing. It is entirely up to him.

    This is how trials are conducted around the world, in Civil Law (as opposed to Common Law) jurisdictions.

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    1. Rose de los Reyes (Seattle, WA)February 17, 2017 at 10:49 AM

      Correct. And the person doing the questioning at these proceedings are neither of the canon lawyers. It is one of the judges of the tribunal who is asking the questions --- in this case, that judge is Cardinal Burke. All the answers/testimonies will be compiled together with other evidence: documents, photos, videos (probably materials downloaded by the CDF and the Vatican from JungleWatch's treasure trove of back-up and evidentiery materials --- hahahhaha, I'm chuckling, but there could be truth to that) and the canon lawyers from each side will submit written arguments of their sides of the case. The judges then review the evidence carefully together with the written arguments, deliberate together, and issue a verdict.

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    2. Dear CNMI Lawyer or anyone..what is the name of the prosecutor and did he attend yesterday?..thank you

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    3. @ CNMI Lawyer, I am leaning towards your perspective here.

      I still maintain that it might be better for the case to have the victims be deposed sans attorneys if that is what the process requires. I am concerned that the refusal only helps Apuron. This is all predicated, of course, on the notion that the Tribunal is pure.

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    4. According to press accounts, the Promoter of Justice (prosecutor) is Rev. Robert Geisinger of Chicago.

      The Procurator-Advocate (for Apuron) is Rev. James Conn, a Boston College religious professor.

      Rev. Justin M. Wachs from South Dakota is the Notary for the Tribunal, and works for the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith .

      They would normally all be present at trial sessions with witnesses, though I have no personal knowledge of who was there.

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    5. CNMI Lawyer, Discovery obviously isn't your thing. These Vatican investigators are not impartial. They're rats on Apuron's side.

      As far back as 1995, Robert Geisinger SJ was directly involved in the coverup of predatory pedophile Donald McGuire SJ, Mother Teresa's former spiritual director. Now laicized, violent McGuire is serving a 25-year Federal prison sentence for abusing a San Francisco Bay Area boy whose parents were friends of his.

      Two very prominent San Francisco Jesuits who remain icons of extreme right-wing Catholics were also exposed as being instrumental in the McGuire coverup, but they escaped prosecution. I know both of the despicable priests and some of the attorneys on both sides of the case. The attorneys justifiably hate all of these arrogant Jesuits worse than death, duplicitous Geisinger included.

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    6. CNMILawyer points out that Sondia is a witness and not a party to this case. BUT, he is also plaintiff in a civil case and his attorney should have been allowed during the time Cdl Burke met with Sondia.
      If Apurun's attorney is allowed they can also use info received during the tribunal to help in his defense in the civil process. Sondia has a right to have his attorney present because he is more than just a witness. Deacon Martinez was just a witness. Sondia was more than that.

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  6. The nearest thing to canon law is a comic book known as the
    UCMJ: Uniform Code of Military Justice. Bottom line: Different spanks for different Ranks. Officers get away with infinitely more than Enlisted petsonnel.

    Burke is like the incompetent JAG/military lawyers. They can't make rank unless they stay in lock-step with the arbitrary and capricious System. They don't have to know anything beyond that.

    The US legal system isn't perfect, but if it functioned only half as badly as Church and military law do, more lawyers and Judges would be behind bars than walking the streets.

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  7. Janet, the Church doesn't need to be trusted. Christ was persecuted, mocked, etc etc. God himself never conformed to societal pressures. This is the mind of the Church, this is how it has been for centuries, and this is how it will remain. Don't be expecting it to come out of its "shadows" because some measly bishop in the middle of the ocean touched altar boys. Our day of judgement will come, that's when the ultimate justice will be handed down, don't worry about that.

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    1. So it's ok to persecute and mock altar boys like Apuron did? But only in the middle of the ocean?

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    2. It is not Christ or his Church's integrity that is being questioned, but the human leaders of the church that have developed this practice of operating in the shadows. Just because it has been practiced for centuries does not mean that it is the truth or that it has justice as its end result. Christ himself admonished us to perform our good works in the open for all to see, there is nothing shameful in the truth.

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  8. Additionally, Cdl. Burke is an extreme left (great for my taste tbh) which means that the secrecy will be maintained no matter what we say. He's not on the "who am I to judge" side of things (Pope Francis) meaning he will not alter what has already been in place.

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    1. 9:14 AM that statement makes no sense whatsoever because you obviously don't know the difference between left and right.

      Cardinal Burke is anything but "an extreme left". He has always affiliated himself with the extreme right. That's why most Catholics loathe him.

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  9. I do not know where else to pass this on: remind of louie in Qatar. Spn2. https://conservativedailypost.com/qatar-slave-trade-international-center-for-missing-children-final-puzzle-piece-found-clinton/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=CDR&utm_content=Sam

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  10. I do not know where else to pass this on: reminds me of louie in Qatar. Turns my stomach. Spn2. https://conservativedailypost.com/qatar-slave-trade-international-center-for-missing-children-final-puzzle-piece-found-clinton/?utm_source=Facebook&utm_medium=CDR&utm_content=Sam

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  11. Apuron's car for sale $23,000.
    That will help clear some of his debt left.

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    1. Even professional detailing will not get rid of stench in that car. Junk it.

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    2. Not even exorcism and a rack-wash in soapy holy water could clean the devil out of that car. It's probably possessed and dangerous to drive. Maybe that's why the Neocats didn't buy it.

      What was done with Apuron's personal belongings? I hope the archdiocese isn't using the Faithful's money to have them stored.

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    3. Donate the car to Andersen AFB for their firing range. It would make one less target taxpayers have to buy.

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  12. Fr.Matthew Blockley.February 17, 2017 at 12:52 PM


    I have a trust and confidence in Cardinal Burke to seek the truth and report the truth that he finds.
    I also agree with David Lujan. His clients should only speak in the presence of Atty.Lujan.There is now a big trust issue. It is difficult to trust and if no trust impossible to bring about any healing.Atty like myself works on gut feeling unless a person gives vibes of trust best not to trust or give any information.
    More would have been achieved over coffee with Atty.Lujan his client Cardinal Burke alone. Much more would have been achieved.

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  13. i feel something is fishy...... the cardinal is know to not resolve things like this... i think is is not to be trusted... even if he is a cardinal...

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    1. Burke was the highest judicial authority in Vatican, being the prefect of the Supreme Tribunal of the Apostolic Signatura, apart the Pope, and in all Church. He is humble, intelligent and wise, and he has a strong knowledge about Canon Law. I think he will find the truth at all costs

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  14. Archdiocese surrounded in Fake News.

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  15. Oh, my. Chatting away in Dianaland about Cardinal Berkes. Hope he has sense of humor.

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  16. How long will Cardinal Burke stay? Is he gone already??

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    Replies
    1. Let put an APB out for the NCW celebration tonight at Cathedral.

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