As you know, I have invited "Diana" to a personal chat (here and here) so that we might both fulfill Christ's command found in Matthew 18:15-16, which tells us how to deal with problems between people within the church. The command does not depend on the prospects of conciliation or apologies. The command is the command, and because someone in a comment recommended that we actually do this, I proposed that we should. However, Diana's answer is NO. We pick up the conversation here on her blog with Zoltan's comment referencing my invitation to Diana and disparagingly referencing me as "Timmy".
- Hi Diana, I guess I don't need to say anything. I completely trust your judgment. I still write down my opinion. This offer from the Jungle is as fake as the fake is. First of all, there is no offer of apology after his avalanche of scoffing and insults. No apology to you, not to anyone else. If Timmy thinks seriously that you represent more than yourself, then he also has to apologize for everyone he has hurt. This is that simple, a basic condition for any further contact. Otherwise there is absolutely nothing, zero, zilch to talk about with him, in my opinion.Reply
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AnonymousMarch 11, 2014 at 11:54 PMSounds like your'e holding a grudge.
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Dear Zoltan,
Walking in the Way is not always easy. As one anonymous poster pointed out, we need to be humble. I am not anyone's spokesperson. -
Then you need speak for no one other than yourself. No. I am not apologizing. I am asking you to confront me as a Christian. I am asking because you have much to say about me here. I will listen as promised.Delete
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Dear Tim,
People have much to say about you because you made it that way. You made yourself known so many can say much about you. You are not interested in knowing anything about the Neocatechumenal Way. You only want to know my identity.
Furthermore, my posts are not about you. I never said your name in any of my posts. I always say "Those who oppose the Way" because it isn't only you who oppose the Way. However, people say your name in comments to my post. -
AnonymousMarch 12, 2014 at 7:45 AMDiana, I believe that if you are a strong advocate and believe in whatever path you are on, then there should be no fear in meeting with Tim Rohr. If not, then you do not have the faith or strength to face him head on. Think about it!
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Dear Anonymous,
The strength of my faith is not measured in whether I meet Tim Rohr or not. -
I have no idea why your identity needs to be a mystery in the first place. I have no clue why Christians do not have enough strength of their convictions to put their name on them. And no, I have no desire to know who you really are. I only have the desire to fulfill the commandment of Christ to confront our brothers as he prescribes. It may go nowhere, but at least we will have fulfilled the command. And as the scripture says, once you fulfill that prescription, you can shake the dust from your feet and move on. However, if you will not meet me, please send someone who will.Delete
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And so if it isn't about me and about many who oppose the Way, then have you attempted to personally engage any of them as Christ instructs?Delete
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AnonymousMarch 12, 2014 at 9:28 AMIt's because "Diana" may be a conglomerate of persons. Also, in-line with the distortions and manipulations of official documents, "Diana" has to distort and manipulate who "she" is. Meeting with Tim will reveal the deception.
As long as "Diana" is not identified, anything written on this blog will never be verifiable as well as nobody can be held accountable for the errors.
It is in "Diana's" interest to never reveal who they are and to never meet with anyone. -
AnonymousMarch 12, 2014 at 10:22 AMAs I was taught since I was a kid, there is no need to "show face" or be known just because you strongly defend something. What the point of knowing ones identity? I mean does it matter?
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Dear Tim,
There are always two sides to every story. You provide one side, and I provide the other side. The purpose of your blogiste is to tell people about the Neocatechumenal Way. My blogsite serves the same purpose. The only difference is that you are voicing your opinion as one who has never participated in the Neocatechumenal Way. I am the one walking in the Way for 8 years. Also, you didn't sin against me. I think it's the Archbishop you offended the most especially with your call to gather people against him.
And to Anonymous at 9:28 a.m., I am not a conglomerate of many persons. I am one person, and anyone can see that from my writing. I provide sources to back up what I say. For example, the letter of the priest who has a PH.D is on the Internet, and I provided the weblink for you and everyone else to read. All you need to do is show me how I managed to manipulate his letter.
As an example, Tim Rohr interpreted Kiko's letter to the Pope as "disobedience".....I will not obey. Under this thread which I posted, I showed that there is a difference between disobedience and disagreements, and how Kiko's letter was one of disagreement rather than disobedience. Even Tim Rohr agrees that it's okay to disagree with the Pope as he stated in one of his posts.
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AnonymousMarch 12, 2014 at 9:52 AMWell if anyone want's to Dialogue, the seminary it's down there in Yona. The damage is done, people were hurt in community and outside the NCW. I fully respect Tim but did not expect this from him. He inspired me to defend the CATHOLIC Church from the past. After all, the main goal for all of us being in the womb of the Catholic Church is the Kingdom of Heaven. How to gain this? Is love. Diana keep the articles pumping.Reply
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That is correct. My answer is no.
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AnonymousMarch 12, 2014 at 12:33 PMDiana, you are correct in acknowledging that the strength of one’s faith cannot be measured by such actions or choices as agreeing to meet OR face off with anyone as the situation is with Tim’s offer; in fact there is only One who can measure and judge the depth or superficiality of our Faith – no one else but God, our Creator. That said, it is also an innate human quality or human nature to want to share with excitement and joy, one’s discovery of authentic faith and Truth with everyone -- and not from the “closet.”
Having discovered and thus possessing that which is The Authentic Truth one would not be able to contain the yearning not only to Share that Truth, but most especially to pass on and reveal such Truth, In Person! So why the hesitancy with taking on the opportunity to share the Neocatechuminal Way and Truth you walk with Tim?? Isn’t that a way of evangelizing? -
Dear Anonymous,
Tim Rohr does not need to be evangelized because he is a Catholic like me., I also don't think Tim is interested in knowing the truth about the Neocatechumenal Way. -
AnonymousMarch 12, 2014 at 2:58 PMI believe the Archbishop is the root to this. Archbishop has offended Tim and others and so they attack the NCW because he has close ties with them. What if the Archbishop was never involved with the NCW but still allowed in Guam?
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Dear Anonymous,
I had the same suspicions in the beginning. I suspect that there is a history between the Archbishop and Tim. I don't know what that history is or what the Archbishop did to Tim and vice versa. Whatever it is, I hope that the wounds between them can heal. There are people in the Way who are good people, and many of them may not even know Tim Rohr or even the Archbishop at the personal level.
How is the NCW even involved in the problem.....unless one feels that the Archbishop pays more attention to the NCW. If that is the case, then the problem is not the NCW. Perhaps, one simply needs to bring to the attention of the Archbishop that he appears to favor the NCW over anything else. Sometimes, people don't realize what they are doing unless one brings it to their attention.
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Now, in answer to this last comment, by Diana herself, I posted the following. I don't know if she will approve for posting, so I am copying it here:
Yes, there is a history between the Archbishop and myself. I have gone to battle for him when no one else would. Back when no one would come forward to stand up against BJ Cruz and his same-sex bill, it was me the Archbishop turned to. I asked him if he could find someone else. I didn't feel equipped. I asked him if there was anyone in the Neocatechumenal Way, lawyers who knew much more than me who would stand up to BJ Cruz, an attorney, a senator, and a former Supreme Court Chief Justice. The Archbishop said, no. There was no one.
It took me 9 months of fighting against this bill on the radio, on TV, in the newspaper, 9 months of my life when I was struggling financially due to enormous medical bills related to the birth of one of my children, 9 months of being called a bigot and a homophobe and mocked.
And it was I who put together a symposium to go the churches and speak about this bill and what its effects would be. It was I who asked the Archbishop to ask Edward Garcia and Ric Eusebio to join me in this crusade. It was I who stood side by side with them night after night in parish after parish talking and urging people to oppose this bill.
And then when BJ went after the Archbishop personally with a bill that would have put him behind bars for not reporting known sex abuse cases (AND THERE WERE KNOWN SEX ABUSE CASES), it was I who went to bat for him, it was I who fought BJ tooth and nail in the media, it was I who the Archbishop's legal counsel called when they needed somebody to go after SNAP. Ask him.
It was I who fought to limit BJ Cruz's "window legislation" so that the archdiocese couldn't be sued as other dioceses in the states have been sued. It was my face which was the hated face of the Catholic Church in the media. It was I who was called the "bishop's boy", the bishop's lackey", the "bishop's dog." Ask him. Ask BJ Cruz.
It was I who worked to get the first significant legislation introduced to battle the abortionists who had free rein on this island for 30 years. It was I who stood in front of the legislature at public hearings and battled against senators who mocked, ridiculed and even yelled at me. I did it so the Archbishop wouldn't have to and so that I could save him stain of abortion blood on an island that is mostly Catholic and under his control for three decades but kills a child every day, 2/3 of whom are of his own blood. Ask him.
It is I who go on the radio, on TV, into the newspaper every time our Catholic Faith is mocked or challenged. It is I whose family had to suffer and do without while we sank every available dollar and available minute of our lives in starting a Catholic bookstore so that Catholics could learn about their faith and because no one else would do it. It was I who got my children up at 4am on Sunday mornings so we could load up our car with tables and books so that we could be at the 6am Mass somewhere and sell books after Masses standing in the rain and the sun when other families were enjoying brunch, and doing it even though I could have been making much more money doing something else.
It was I who cleaned up the mess after the Archbishop's meeting with the legislature at which he was accused of wanting to kill homosexuals because of a letter released in his name that he didn't write. It was I who called up Travis Coffman when he was reading the letter in disbelief on the radio that afternoon. It was I who fought to protect the bishop's name, making sure that everyone knew that the archbishop didn't write it even though it was on his letterhead. Ask him.
It was I who called his attention to the Archdiocese paying for contraceptives and abortifacients because of the Obamacare mandate. It was I who was at the meeting with the Archbishop and his advisors: Deacon Kim, Msgr. David, Ed Terlaje. It was I who proposed a solution which has kept this Archdiocese, the only Archdiocese in the whole country, exempt from having to pay for baby killing drugs. Ask them.
Yes, that is what is between the Archbishop and me. I have gone to bat for him again and again in the dirtiest of battles and when no one else would. I did all these things because I love my Catholic Faith and because the Church is my Mother, and you don't mess with my Mother. I did it too because the Archbishop is the embodiment of the Catholic Church, and protecting him was protecting my Church. But the Archbishop has chosen to attack a portion of that Catholic Church, he has chosen to side against the portion that is not Neo, he has chosen to destroy priests and deacons who stand in his way, and I will fight him as viciously as I protected him.
But if you don't want to meet with me if only to fulfill the commandment of the Lord so that you can rightfully shake the dust from your feet, then, well, at least you know the rest of the story.
Tim, this old one from Chalan Pago is still with you, still praying for you, I do wish I am as eloquent in speaking as others so I could be there beside you talking. May our Lord bless you with the strength and fortitude to continue telling the truth. By the way, the word is out that I (by name) and my family will not be donating to the appeal.
ReplyDeleteI guess Diana didn't want to post my comment so I will do,it here.
ReplyDeleteDiana, I have tried to talk to the Archibishop, but only got blown away. He just doesn't want to,listen to the opinions and or observations of others. His way is the only way!
I have not given to the Appeal for the past 10 years. I am too old to listen to his requests for anything anymore. I use to attend his 9:30 Masses, but now I attend as someone so,eloquently called the Church that looks like the Taitano Apts, the Immaculate Heart of Mary.
As a matter of fact, I am writing a short story regarding the Way and what affect it had on family members and the division it caused.
Yes, what Chuck wrote is true. Family members are the evil idols in our lives as sated by Fathe Francis Walsh in his homily comparing the church sinking into the sand with a husband's worst enemy being his wife.
You can write all you want, but I have lived through hell living and being around people in the WAY! One thing is for sure, I do not air out my dirty laundry.
You write about The Lord revealing our sins to everyone at the final judgement, well no one will know who I am, not unless you received a revelation from above.
Many who write on this blog have unfortunately had bad experiences with Anthony Apuron going back many years. Apuron has hurt many people and only the past year is the truth coming out about him. He is not an honest man and has damaged many people.
ReplyDeleteI receive many comments like the above. I do not allow them through because I am not interested in unsubstantiated accusation against the Archbishop. I am allowing this one through as an example of what I will not allow. If you can substantiate the accusation then please provide it, otherwise, you will not see any future comments like this.
DeleteJoelle, please open your Guam files .
ReplyDeleteMr. Rohr is a WATCHMAN in the tradition of the Bible, who watches, sees, and reports on the injustices being committed, the wrongs being perpetrated, and the evils being allowed, and as it was in the Bible, many times it is our own spiritual leaders who have committed these travesties. Unlike the rest of us who prefer to not get our hands dirty, Mr. Rohr does the dirty work of God. May God continue to bless him and his family.
ReplyDeleteThank you Tim. Reading your comment this evening of how you defended the archbishop of Guam so many times helps me understand your position. You have always protected and continue to protect what is true. you are great example to us. We pray that things will heal on Guam and peace at some stage restored. Just know we admire you greatly and your cause for truth. When priests are destroyed you remind us of the need for truth. Even the archbishop has no right to destroy priests.
ReplyDeleteTo DianaMarch 12, 2014 at 3:42 PM
ReplyDeleteHe has been told, more than once.
And how many times has Tim said that it is about the mandates from Rome that are not being followed.
You say that kiko is in disagreement with the Pope. I have to disagree. It is disobedience. You use the example of Peter and Paul's exchange about having to follow the Jewish tradition,did you not read in another passage where when Peter made a decision and spoke there was no more discussion on the matter? Are there good people in the NCW? Sure, I don't doubt it. that does not make its theology correct.Many protestant religions could claim the same thing.
The NCW is supposed to be about teaching the faith and reintegrating people into parish life, Where is this happening? In not one place where there is a NCW community.
You see Diana, the founder of NCW, in saying that the Church was in apostate from the time of Constantine,is calling Jesus the Christ a liar.
"You are Peter and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it" and again, "I will be with you always, until the end of the age"
This "argument" has never been about the persons in the NCW, It has been about the teachings and practices of this movement.
In the above comment thread from Diana's blog, Anonymous at March 12, 2014 at 9:52 AM says:
ReplyDelete"Well if anyone want's to Dialogue, the seminary it's down there in Yona. The damage is done, people were hurt in community and outside the NCW. I fully respect Tim but did not expect this from him. He inspired me to defend the CATHOLIC Church from the past. After all, the main goal for all of us being in the womb of the Catholic Church is the Kingdom of Heaven. How to gain this? Is love. Diana keep the articles pumping."
To this, I submitted the following reply, but as of 6pm the same day, Diana had not approved it to be posted, so I will post it here:
For Anonymous at 9:52, I spent many years dialoging with the seminary: Fr. Jim (one of the first rectors), Fr. Ivan, Fr. Walsh, and many of the first group of seminarians. I attended many events there including liturgy of the hours on several occasions and often ate there.
One of the reasons was that I was around quite a bit was because my company, for several years, serviced their dishwashing machine and provided their kitchen with chemical supplies. I also stood with the seminarians at a table on many Wednesday nights at the Chamorro Village handing out Catholic information. We had many long conversations.
But ultimately the break came when it became obvious that the NCW was not going to comply with the CDW directive within the two year period of transition that was given. I was told by Fr. Walsh, that Kiko had advised the NCW leaders not to change the practice, and Fr. Walsh then relayed to me "we have no choice." I have the email and you can confirm this with Fr. Walsh yourself. After that I said nothing about the NCW until the Fr. Paul issue exploded, with this very issue (the distribution of holy communion) being at the root of it.
I spent many years conversing with the above named people and expressing my concern that a rupture was coming. It didn't seem to matter to them. In fact, they saw it as necessary. The rupture has come. If Diana will not meet with me, then I am willing to meet with anyone. Call me: 483-0467.
No one has called.
In Diana's comment string, Anonymous at March 12, 2014 at 10:22 AM says:
ReplyDelete"As I was taught since I was a kid, there is no need to "show face" or be known just because you strongly defend something. What the point of knowing ones identity? I mean does it matter?"
Is this really what they teach in the Neocatechumenal Way? The whole basis of the NCW is a return to the "early Church", the church of the catacombs. If ever there was a time in the history of the church, when publicly attaching one's identity to one's beliefs meant something, it was during the first centuries of the church's existence. The word martyr is latin for "witness". To hide is not to witness, it is a contradiction in terms.
So we have here, from Diana on down, a witness to the very lack of witness, if you can follow that. It is the very opposite of Catholic. It is an insult to the martyrs who died the most cruel deaths ever devised by man for merely attaching the word "Christian" to their name. In short it is pure cowardice, a complete perversion of the Gospel. God sent us the Word Made Flesh, the gospel is a PERSON, the person of Jesus Christ. This is the very opposite of what we see with "Diana", all-knowing and all-brave behind a pseudonym. Thank you, Diana, for your witness to the Neocatechumenal Way. We no longer have to "come and listen", we came and we saw.
Who is Joelle ?
ReplyDeleteI think that person is referring to being humble.
ReplyDeleteI agree with those who say local and global issues should be set apart. A local leadership problem is usually solved in a different manner than a more global issue. The archbishop is local but the neo-catechumenary is global. Being uninformed, let me not comment on local politics.
ReplyDeleteThe global issue is the missionary activity of the neo-catechumenary and its local lieutenants. They want to saturate Guam with their particular interpretation of the Bible, making foot soldiers the gullible. Their teaching is secret, folks, this is the whole issue! They do not follow the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Pope Benedict asked the leadership to publish Mr Arguello's ramblings about faith called his Catechetical Directory. However, as I found out, this book has never been published! There are rumors that Benedict's confrontations in this regard took a heavy toll on his health and stature that eventually forced his resignation.
My research in the literature revealed that Mr. Arguello's book is kept secret from members and those who were recruited to this organization are kept in the dark and cannot even see the "official teaching" of their leader unless they commit themselves to be missionaries. Then, but only then, they are promoted to be lieutenants and can have access to the secret books.
It all resembles a well organized Pentecostal movement with heavy top-down chain of command.
Thank you for you photo of "support the priests and the Catholic Church". Yes, I will support my parish priest and my parish church or any parish church that seeks donations for its functions, but I will not support the Archdiocesan Annual Appeal to support the education of NCW seminarians.
ReplyDeleteI know who Diana is and I will reveal it at the end of my post.
ReplyDeleteInteresting how Diana says she does not need to evangelize Tim because he is already Catholic. So why does the Neo target new members and pull them away from the Catholic Churches? Why don't they ask Pastor billiy Bob to speak at their services? Why don't they stand outside Bayview Baptist on Sunday morning trying to evangelize non-Catholics. Is the real answer that they don't consider people in Catholic Churches to be real Catholics? That is the only conclusion you can draw from her statement and her actions combined. I guess we must prove ourselves Catholic as Tim has done to get them to leave us alone in our parishes.
Diana infers that Tim doesn't know what he is talking about because he has never been in the Way. Well, Diana, Tim has taken the time to learn about your organization by talking to members, current and pat, and by talking to its priests. I don't have to be a graduate of MIT to know about it, and appreciate it is a fine and difficult school. I may not understand every nuance of an MIT education, but if I ask the right questions, I would expect to get answers that bring me closer to an understanding. But you know as well as I do, because we have both walked, that secrecy is an important element of the NCW. That is why so many people say it is a cult, because you refuse to be forthcoming with information. How many times have people asked serious questions about the Way to better understand it? Many times on this blog. But how many serious answers have they gotten. I cannot think of even one. Your talking to Tim, or anyone, about the NCW will never happen because you know, deep down in your good intentioned heart, that there are no real answers to give that will not make the Neo look bad. All you could possibly say is "Look at the fruits".
You are right that our Archbishop is probably the biggest problem in this whole mess. Not only has he completely failed those not in the Way because of his huge focus on everything Neo, but he has also failed the NCW because as the leader of everyone on Guam, he has to be the one to address these problems. By his silence he hurts the NCW as much as he hurts the non-NCW. This discord between the "Haves and Have Nots" can only be addressed by a leader at the top who is a real leader, but so far he seems to prefer the status as a follower. If I were still in the Way, I would be plenty pissed off at the Archbishop because his silence and inept leadership has caused the NCW to look absolutely horrible in the eyes of the average Catholic. If the NCW actually stood up to him as the rest of us have been doing in voicing our opinions maybe things would change. If Diana and all other community members told the Archbishop, "Hey, fix this mess and make things right, we don't like this conflict" then maybe he would take to heart what Christ is expecting him to do. But if all you do is defend his actions and support his ways of leadership, then you will continue to see people also voice frustration at you. You are what modern society calls an enabler.
Diana and all other good Neos...tell the Archbishop to stop hiding and to be a real leader!
Finally I promised to tell you all who Diana really is. First she says she is called to humility. And she says she has been walking in the Way for 8 years. Look at the picture she posts next to her name. Looks like Jesus. Enough said?
For someone who walked for many years in the way I can tell you that none of my cathechists ever spoke about the problems about recieving communion the way we did. I hope that members now who read will now see that they are going against the church and the Pope which is what is often told we don't do. Please brothers I implore you to think critically!
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