Monday, March 24, 2014

HMMMMM - RENOVATIONS FOR AGAT?

May we see the plans for the "renovations" for Our Lady of Mt. Carmel Church in Agat? (Story in the U Matuna 3/23/14). Sorry to be skeptical but whenever a neo-priest "renovates", we have to wonder if it will not be along the lines of a Kiko-catechumenary. Fr. Jason, the previous pastor, may have had some simple plans. But Fr. Jose Alberto Rodriguez is now the pastor and we have seen what he did to Barrigada. 

Meanwhile, here are some pics of what has happened to the Santa Ana chapel in Agat:










65 comments:

  1. This is probably where they have their kikonary celebrations!

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  2. It is close to profane how they predominantly fill Churches with the items directly from their leader Kiko, and only from Kiko (songs included). Extremely cult-centric and scary. Whatever "beauty" is perceived in these paintings is deeply marred by the forced display and obligated purchases.
    Not to mention, they impose this style to the regular congregation without explanation and deliberation. They have to use subterfuge. Look at how the structure in Santa Rita was sold to us. Not one mention of the overbearing Neo style and true purpose.
    If they retort with "If we told you what it was for, you would not have approved." My obvious response, "Exactly."

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  3. What happened in Barrigada is disturbing (Not to mention distracting). Why profane a Church with such loud and jagged images if only to abandon the sacred space for their modified liturgies? It's a mockery of the sanctity of our worship place.

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    1. I'm not in the way but to me is beautiful in comparison to old dusty, grey and scrap metal background. Just saying...

      Municipal of Barrigada

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    2. I'm glad you pointed this out Anon 5:46. The "scrap metal background" was indeed ugly, another casualty of modernism. Too bad previous pastors did not care to do something about that. But the kikofication of the externals is just the beginning of an internal transformation to a church that believes something very different. In fact, it believes in the end of the parish, your parish.

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    3. I am an Agat parishioner and live near the chapel. When that chapel was being built we were told that we could only have mass there one Sunday per month. They wanted us join the rest of the parish the rest of the time. Now the NCW uses it every week for their masses. Can we also use it every week for Sunday masses? I would love to if possible.
      Then I see in the U Matuna that the Boys Chapel is also being restricted for use. No Sunday masses, no baptisms, no weddings. I am a donor to that chapel and no one mentioned when they were asking for funds about any restrictions. If it is a Catholic chapel why can't it be used as such?
      It seems very unfair that the NCW can celebrate anywhere they want every Saturday, including houses, hotels and gymnasiums, but official Catholic chapels cannot be used for these same purposes.
      Why is that Archbishop Anthony?

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  4. Beautiful Chapel!

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  5. Icon by Kiko: Check.
    Lecturn/Pulpit with prayer shawl having Kiko-designed image: Check.
    Kiko Carpet: Check.
    No tabernacle (or a double-decker) : Check
    Original altar behind Presbyter's Chair and out of the way: Check
    People er, "concelebrants" facing each other on three sides: Check
    Eucharistic table moved in as needed: Check.

    How long before the statues and crucifix are removed?

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    1. Janet B - MangilaoMarch 25, 2014 at 9:20 AM

      You forgot one other essential item on the list:
      Tony in Kiko's back pocket : Check !

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  6. I am a parishioner of Agat, and I can tell you that the money we are fundraising for are for the main Church. By renovations, we mean the repair of our roof, which has a crack in the center, air-conditioning which needs replacement, and many other things. I'm not a Neo, but we have been working with Father Jason and Father Alberto, and I can tell you that they are respectful to the Church community, and seek only to repair the Church and help the people. They do not force The Way on other people like some Neo-priests do, thank heavens! They just want to do their job as pastors. Oh, and just to let you know, the Santa Ana Chapel is set up that way only for their celebrations. During the First Saturday Mass, and during the Santa Ana Fiesta, they put back everything in its regular setting. Please hear both sides before you start making assumptions of where our fundraising money is going and what renovations we are doing. This was an initiative of the people and our parish council, who are not in The Way, and our pastor. Granted, some things may need correcting in the Neo-Catechumenal Way, but there is no need to criticize them for every single move they make.

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    1. The people of Barrigada thought the same thing. The tactic is to come in and lay low for a few years and then slowly change from within. You will see.

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    2. There is no need to rearrange anything if the true liturgies are adhered to.
      Force is not always in your face. What is used are subtle changes and omissions of true intent. The new centers for Santa Rita and Barrigada are glaring examples. In addition, the seminary on Guam will only produce 100% Kiko-fied clergy appointed to our parishes by a deeply neo embedded Archbishop.
      Every move they make SHOULD be scrutinized!

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    3. We'll see Tim.

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    4. No need to wait. Look at Barrigada. Find out how long it took before their church was "converted". Why are we rearranging for a neo "Mass"?

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    5. What is so different about barrigada? The images you see?

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    6. The key words from 9:25pm are "their celebrations"...as as opposed to what? "Our celebrations"? Theirs? Ours? Why do "their celebrations" need to be separate? different? Is it because they are not of the same parish? church? religion?

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    7. "Granted, some things may need correcting in the Neo-Catechumenal Way..."
      *ding-ding-ding-ding* we have a winner!!! & it's that tricky "MAY NEED"!

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    8. I agree. I too am a parishioner of Mt. Carmel Church. Fr. Jason and Fr. Alberto aren't forceful with the NCW. They are very nice priest with good intentions. And Yes, do not question our fundraising efforts. It was made clear by both priest it is the Peoples Church and not there's. Last I knew the Parish Council is handling what is being repaired and so on. Father Alberto doesn't have any control.

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    9. I agree. All our money is going to the renovation of Our Lady of Mount Carmel Church. Come down and take a look. There has been many improvements. The People of Hagat LOVES their Church!

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    10. Then you were lied to. It is not the "people's" church. It is the archbishop's church. All church property in the archdiocese belongs to him. And he is a corporation sole. Meaning he doesn't need your approval for anything. This is why he felt he could give away the seminary property to the neos, Andalusia have in fact done so. Saying this is your church is a way to get you to turn over more money. I'm not against beautifying our churches. In fact I'm all for it. But we don't need to be given false ideas about ownership. Tomorrow the archbishop could close it and sell it...or give it to Kiko.

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    11. It's wonderful that all your money is going to improve the church. It's wonderful that "Hagat LOVES their Church." But what you do not understand is that the neo-priests have a completely different belief in the Eucharist. They also believe that the model of parish-based Catholicism is dead. Pay attention to the posts by Chuck White. He has copies of several volumes of Kiko's catechism. He teaches a very different faith. He also teaches that his vision of the faith cannot be imposed all at once lest the people suspect his mission to transform the church from within. This is why you can't get a copy. No one can. They have to be smuggled out of the Neocatechumenal Way.

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    12. Tim, has he actually given the seminary away?

      Thanks,
      R. Camacho

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    13. The archdiocesan finance council, the one he fired, stopped him from doing so. And he was further hindered by the audit ordered by the nuncio and probably the publicity we brought to it on this blog. However, he could have "assigned" the property to the neos. An assignment would not show up on a public record. But could be used to contest ownership should Apuron's successor not prove friendly to the neo. This is why the archbishop's legal counsel opined that "conveyance and assignment are terms of distinction without a difference", and warned of costly legal battles should the archbishop assign the property to the neos.

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    14. i used to have all the copies of the catechesis, scrutinies, steps, liturgies along with the instructions back in PI. When i went back to get it, my friend in the community gave it all back to the catechist without my permission. What i carry with me are my experiences of 22 years as catechist, itenerant, seminarian in the community. i know most of what they do and why they do it and it could be refuted and brought to light their intentions. I too have been upset as to the changes going on in the parishes here in Guam.

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  7. I don't understand how the neos could remodel a very Catholic Chapel and turn it into a community room and still call it a Chapel! Did Agat parishioners not have a say about this!!!!

    Again, I don't see kneelers -- how can this room be referred as a Catholic Chapel without kneelers! The period at Mass during The Consecration of the bread and wine into the Real Presence, the physical body and blood of Christ, requires that everyone assume a reverent posture in acknowledgement and adoration of OUR LORD AND OUR GOD! -- and calls for the congregation to get down on our knees and to bow our heads low!

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    1. Maria, if you enlarge the photos and look closely, you will see that there ARE kneelers. Most of them are up. In the 4th photo of the series, you can see one is down, ready to be used. Clearly the furniture is meant to be easy to move and multi-functional to serve the needs "Regular" Catholics and NeoCats, like in the Blessed Sacrament Chapel in Hagatña. I would hate to see this chapel become all Kiko-fied like the sanctuary at San Vicente.

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    2. Us Agat People really don't have a problem with it. If our Brother and Sisters maintain and pay for the monthly bills we are fine. But of course the celebration of Mass is a different story. We also thank the NCW for maintaining the grounds their.I feel sorry for the old lady and her family who constantly maintain the grounds before the NEOs came. Its a good and bad situation.

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    3. My neighbor is not going to take kindly to you calling her an "old lady". And she has quite a different story about the so-called "help" in caring for the grounds.

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    4. I too have heard that Mrs. Cruz is tired of maintaining the grounds of the chapel, with just her I can image how hard it is. God Bless You Mrs. Cruz for what you do for the Chapel.

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  8. Horrible, so cheap, no class, no style.

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    1. So your saying the chapel is cheap? The only things changed is the positioning of what is inside.

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    2. Exactly. The positioning. The altar, the real one, is ignored, and would be removed. But the neo leaders know they have to do these changes gradually so as not alarm the people who are constantly made to believe that it is their church. It is not. The Archbishop owns it. But it's easier to get their money and cooperation that way.

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    3. Tim is correct when he says the Neos plan is to enter and lay low in the beginning. When Fr. Ivan was leaving for his new assignment in the states he said he would wait a year before speaking to his parishioners about the NCW.

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    4. Anon 3/25 11:21pm.... how dare you call God's house 'horrible..." you insulted the people who built the Santa Ana Chapel... and MY elders who said rosaries, novenas and opened the Chapel for all.

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    5. I believe you misunderstood. The "horrible" was not a description of the Santa Ana chapel, but of Kiko's furnishings and the arrangement of a traditional chapel into an otherwise protestant meeting space, where the focus is on each other.

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  9. TIM AND MARIA! Leave my parish alone with this garbage you put here! We are content including the Way being here. Away from you. Please LEAVE us ALONE!

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    1. Anon 5:50 AM. Leave my blog alone with this garbage you put here! I am content with including what is said here. Away from you. Please LEAVE us ALONE!

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    2. & another winner rears its ugly head ... "my parish" ... followed immediately by "We are content".
      Ego much, Anon??!
      CLUEBAT - Who said "I am The Way, The Truth, The Life & The Light."
      (hint: it wasn't kiko the cat)

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    3. "Anon 5:50am" Agat has been my parish all my life and i have served as an alter boy there. I doubt the entire village is content with your UN "way". So speak for yourself. YOU SHOULD LEAVE US ALONE. IT WAS A BETTER PARISH WITHOUT ALL THE ZOMBIE NEOS!!!!! and yes i am yelling....

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    4. Anon 25 Mar 5:50 AM, You sure do sound like the person that said the ncw is a gift from God, the Holy Spirit. Jes of Chalan Pago

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  10. Well Diana says that she attends both the Mass in the Parish and the NCW Mass, and states that there is a few differences. By what authority do the NCW have to make these changes or differences. Anyone care to explain the differences?

    BTW she says she is not part of the Agana community, so we can rule that out.

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    1. She is Jackie T and is a part of the Agana group. She is merely trying to deflect.

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    2. I don't think so. I think this person is part of the community of Father Eduvaldo or whatever his name is. I think I know who it is, but that will come later after I confirm it! No need to make false accusations.

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  11. Just to add this in! I am active Parishioner of Our Lady of Mount Carmel Church, Agat.

    If you come down to Agat you'll see the improvements made. Also, both NeoS and Non-NeoS get along peacefully. We are a very unique parish. The Neos are active members in the parish and get along peacefully with non-Neos. They do not enforce the, "THE WAY" upon us. There isn't an argument between Neos and Non-Neos. They have been presence for almost 4 years and we are very thankful for them for sharing their God given gifts with us. So maybe not all those in, "The Way" are the same....

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    1. Interesting that you use words like "they" and "them" and "their". You even say that Neos get along with non-Neos, like these are two separate tribes. Where does that language come from?

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  12. I'm sorry, I should have clarified my posting and reference about the kneelers for neo's community meal sessions. (By the way, the neos either observe and celebrate the "Celebration of Holy Sacrifice of the Mass", or they do not. Correct me if I am wrong, but I understood that this celebration of the neos, although it is called or referred to by the neos as the "Eucharist," they are taught and regard their community-coming-together-celebration as "a celebration of the ancient christian meal," or something similar to that -- which the Catholic Holy Sacrifice of the Mass IS NOT).

    I realize that the pews we see in the Agat chapel pictures have kneelers shown propped up; they are kept up because (naturally) the neos cannot dismantel the kneelers soly for the purpose of their neo community Eucharist meal sessions.

    The fact is, the neos only need the use of the PEWS (which happen to be the only style and type of seating furniture available and that are already in Sta. Anna Chapel) only for seating! They do not kneel during their community meal celebration; DO NOT during the consecration and DO NOT during their reception of Holy Communion AND NOT even after receiving The Real Presence of Jesus at Holy Communion! Correct me, if this manner and posture has changed.

    Looking at those pews in the Chapel at Sta. Anna, so, if one seats in the front pew one does not kneel? but if one seats in the back pew they are lucky to be able to kneel? I don’t think that is the case; but I will stand corrected, if this has changed.

    Do you see how far away the back pew is from the kneeler? why would they have to be close to the kneeler if they have no use of it? Again, I stand corrected if this has been changed since I last attended a neo community meal celebration and at that point, decided it was not a Catholic Mass so I didn't want to be a part of it!

    You see, we in the Traditional Catholic Mass have always considered the Mass as a Liturgical WORSHIP OF GOD, and A CELEBRATION of the HOLY SACRIFICE OF OUR LORD JESUS ON THE CROSS! ... and because it is HE, OUR LORD AND OUR GOD who we encounter and receive in Holy Communion, there is no other more perfect way to posture ourselves in Recognition, in Worship and in Adoration of OUR GOD, OUR SUPREME CREATOR'S ACTUAL PHYSICAL PRESENCE, than to Bend Our Knees and bow our heads in Homage of HIM and in our humility and worship of HIM! -- thus the need for kneelers and not just chairs. Esta!

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  13. As a Protestant, I'll pray that Catholics will be peaceful amongst each other. It's so sad to see and hear what's going on in the Catholic. May God bless You.

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    1. Ummm, thanks, but Protestants have been fighting and splitting off from each other since Luther to the tune of 30,000 plus denominations. And the Neocatechumenal Way is about to join you.

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    2. I hope the NCW hurry up and leave and join the other Protestants so we can have our authentic Catholic Church back. NCW-good riddance!

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    3. I don't think their intention is to split off. They want to transform what is the Catholic Church into the Neo Way and with Rome's silence, it seems they may just do that.

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    4. And with Rome's silence, it goes to show that the NCW isn't wrong at all. Tim uses silence to defend himself when the Archbishop "went to Rome". So I think it goes both ways.

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    5. Typical jackass comment showing an inability to read. And a coward to boot. Used to it.

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  14. Tim, don't you and your family live in Agat?... I don't see you or any of your family attending or participating in parish Mass or activities.

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    1. Yes, we live in Agat, and many years ago we chose to no longer attend Mass there. We found the Mass, the music, the way people dressed, the running about of children, to be disrespectful and irreverent. I wanted my children to attend a Mass where they could learn the meaning of "sacred", where Eucharistic Ministers were not employed in violation of church norms, where people didn't greet each other and chat on the way back from communion while chomping on the host, where there was reverence for Christ in the tabernacle and people didn't walk past it without so much as a bow, where there was a respectful quiet in the church after Mass for those, like my family, that stayed to pray a silent thanksgiving. Sadly most churches are like that. I found the reverence I was looking for at the friary. My children have learned the meaning of sacred, solemnity, respect, silence, adoration. My duty is to them and to their souls before there is any duty to a parish.

      But now that you asked, Pope Benedict's Moto Proprio Summorum Pontificum has guaranteed the right of any Catholic to attend Mass in the Extraordinary Form. No parish on this island offers it. It is only offered at the Friary. My children's spiritual life has flourished by their exposure to form of the liturgy, a form that Benedict has said was "never abrogated" and must be "restored" to it's proper place. Only one place and one priest has seen to that restoration as Benedict required.

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    2. And I will add, if you are going to address me by name, have the decency and integrity to use yours.

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  15. Rohr - away with you - Leave Agat alone please.

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    1. Yes. This is how people who cannot deal with issues deal with issues. They make it about me. For the record (see original post), I had no criticism of the renovations of the Agat church and am indeed for them. They have long been needed. I simply asked to see the plans. I asked this because of what is already planned for your neighbor, Santa Rita.

      Sadly, there is a pattern to the neo takeover of a parish. And they are very good at it. Agat is in the first stages. The Neocatechumenal Way teaches something very different about the Eucharist and eventually they modify their worship spaces to conform to it. They know they can't do this all at once. It wouldn't be supported by the people. They do it gradually, which is why I asked to see the plans.

      In Santa Rita, Fr. Fabio tried to do things too fast (that is his temperament) and many parishioners have left, as did many from Barrigada. They are going slower in Agat.

      I am really not all that concerned with what they do with the worship spaces. I am concerned, as evidenced constantly on this blog, with a theology of the Eucharist that is not Catholic. Sadly they are finding an easy time of it since most Catholics don't even know what the true theology of the Eucharist is. And that is NOT the fault of the neo-priests.

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  16. Why the focus on agat church now. We can all live together in peace. We who are walking can have our liturgy and Eucharist then those who want the common mass ,can go to their mass. This is 2014 we can have differences on how the mass is produced, ts the same God. Does he really matter that the NCW is different from the. Ofm on mass. Infact it shows we have evolved the mass from what it was bringing it into the modern world.

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    1. I rather suspect that the above is an impostor comment - meaning it is not a comment by a neo. I am getting a lot of these lately and I must let you know that these comments hurt the discussion. I am letting this one through so I can make a point of it. Please don't waste my time.

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  17. As a layman non NCW member of agat church I just find the placing of the altar and other objects creating a very busy kind of space. Is it not best to have a clear spacious sanctuary with the focus on the tabernacle and nor the altar on all these red carpets and colors that hit you when you look at the church interior design. Think this is what the comment of 1121am means. The church is not horrible. But the interior layout is the problem. That's how I see it. Sorry If I'm wrong.

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    1. Again, the "horrible" comment was relative to the neo-arrangement and furnishings in the Santa Ana chapel in Agat, NOT the main church, Our Lady of Mt. Carmel.

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  18. It amazes me that these chapels now have restrictions imposed as to who can and cannot use them. My understanding is that families donate their property and a chapel is built to accommodate those living in the vicinity. These people are probably the same ones who with their hard earn money and labor of love built them. To deny someone the use like the family in Canada Barrigada, because the NCW services comes first is appalling.

    If I can recall as posted here somewhere in the jungle, the family that was refused the used of the San Ramon Chapel, was approached on the day of the funeral by a NCW member who stated that if the family had asked him/her about using the Chapel permission would have been given. This only tells us that the NCW is slowly taking over the church on the dos and the don'ts of what is allowed in the church.

    It makes me wonder if later in life the NCW will become mandatory for being initiated into the Catholic Faith. If this should ever happen, there will most certainly be a division within the Catholic Church here on island. I know for a fact that the Archbishop is pushing the NCW in the faces of people.

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  19. Janet B - MangilaoMarch 27, 2014 at 5:12 PM

    Anon 3/27 @ 11:37...
    there is already a division. Unfortunately the Three Stooges on the Hill refuse to reach out and try to listen to concerns and mend fences. I can no longer respect a leader who hids from the problem, and then seemingly goes out of his way to make the problem even worse. Look at his bold actions since Aug/Sep. He has totally drunken the kiko kool aid.
    He is a real disaster and Rome had better replace him soon before a schism erupts.

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  20. I guess the colors of the NCW is red flooring cover with bright yellow wall!

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