Thursday, April 24, 2014

ON SECOND THOUGHT


On second thought (see first thought), I don't want to (yet) release the full audio recording of Archbishop Apuron's fateful KOLG interview nor reveal the content of the cover up that followed. We'll save that. I would rather have a little fun with Anonymous April 23, 2014 at 7:55 PM.

First, several people believe they recognize this commenter and their observations pretty much confirm my initial suspicion. He's attacked me before in pretty much the same way. But let's leave his identity aside for now and look at what he says.

Before we begin, I want to make a distinction between the Neo's and what we will heretofore refer to as the Kiko's. Not all Neo's are Kiko's. Many Neo's are simply people who want to deepen their faith and have no clue about the larger problems. These problems are not their fault. It is the fault of the Kiko's. And the Kiko's are just that, those who follow, obey, and subject themselves to Kiko the Almighty.

An example of a Kiko is captured best in an excerpt from an email I received from a local seminary professor in 2008 explaining why the Neocatechumenal Way had not changed its manner of distributing Holy Communion as required by the Congregation for Divine Worship in 2005 and after the period of transition had expired in 2007. I have used this excerpt several times in this blog because it best illustrates a Kiko: "...there are no documents to show you at this point.  All our instruction have been oral, but we are satisfied with that.  We have no choice." (In a future post I will share more of this conversation. It was very enlightening.)

So those are the Kiko's: the Neo's who know what the Magisterium requires, but reject it because Kiko has spoken and "we have no choice." So let us proceed with the current Kiko
Your zeal for the Pope whom you thought was going to take us all back to the Rite and Era which you prefer and have passion for, Pre Vatican II. Your hopes were cut short when he became Pope Emeritus. 
First, we see the divisiveness that we have come to expect from the Kiko's. Here, he pits one pope against another as if they represent two different factions of Catholicism. But his slamming of Benedict and holding up of Francis is a true demonstration of Kiko-idiocy. Here's why:

  1. It was Benedict who gave the long awaited approval to the Statute of the Neocatechumenal Way so that it could operate authentically within the Church. 
  2. It was Benedict who went to great lengths to review, modify, and give final approval to Kiko's massive 13 volume catechetical directory.
  3. It was with Benedict that Kiko and Carmen appeared ad nauseum in photo-op after photo-op. 
  4. And it was Francis, who on Feb. 1, 2014 gave the Neocatechumenal leadership its strongest ever public rebuke, telling them first to respect the cultures they go in to, and second to stop hounding people who want to leave the program. By comparison, Benedict's strongest public rebuke of the Neocatechumenal Way was his 1/6/06 plea to the NCW leadership to conform to the directive issued by the Congregation for Divine Worship a month earlier. 
Given the record, if the NCW ever had a friend it was Pope Benedict. But you see now since he is of no use to them, they kick him to the curb like a dying dog. (Archbishop Apuron, are you paying attention?)

But now let's deal with this Kiko's attempt to pretend he knows me and what I prefer and don't prefer. As so often demonstrated on this blog, the Kiko's who don't have the intelligence to engage my documented points default to personal attacks. It's the cheapest and lowest of responses which is why we so often find them there: in the gutter, spitting mud and choking on their own vomit. 

However, this idiot, like the others, affords an opportunity for education that I could not have easily constructed myself. This Kiko-idiot believes that because I prefer solemnity and reverence in the liturgy that I am longing for the Middle Ages. Let's set the record straight. I, and many others, would simply like to see the liturgy stop being your freaking plaything. We would like to see the liturgy match what Vatican II and the liturgy-related post-conciliar documents require. Idiot-Benedict-banger, are you paying attention? Okay, here's what that is:

• We would like to see Latin preserved in the liturgy. Why? Because we are some pre-Vatican II regressives? No. Because Vatican II required it: "Particular law remaining in force, the use of the Latin language is to be preserved in the Latin rites." (Sacrosanctum Concilium, 36.1)

• We would like to see Gregorian Chant retain pride of place. Why? Because we hate guitars? No. Because Vatican II required it: "The Church acknowledges Gregorian chant as specially suited to the Roman liturgy: therefore, other things being equal, it should be given pride of place in liturgical services." (Sacrosanctum Concilium, 116.)

• We would like to NOT see spurious innovations and more respect for traditional worship. Why? Because we are liturgical reactionaries? No. Because Vatican II required it: "...there must be no innovations unless the good of the Church genuinely and certainly requires them; and care must be taken that any new forms adopted should in some way grow organically from forms already existing." (Sacrosanctum Concilium 23.)

• We would like to see conformity in our liturgical celebrations so we don't have to wonder what church we are in when we go to what we think is a Mass or wonder where and when the Kiko's are having their eucharist. Why? Because we despise inculturation or private liturgies? No. Because Vatican II requires that the Mass be a "sacrament of unity": "Liturgical services are not private functions, but are celebrations of the Church, which is the "sacrament of unity," namely, the holy people united and ordered under their bishops. (Sacroscantum Concilium 26. Note that our bishop conducts his own liturgical service as a "private function".)

Nowhere does Vatican II require that only Latin and Chant be employed, but only that it be "preserved" and retain "pride of place". There is much in the document that allows for the legitimate incorporation of local expressions and we see much of those. But where do we see Latin preserved and Chant given pride of place (and we don't mean the occasional insertion of an "Agnus Dei")? NOWHERE. 

• We would also like to see the norms for music in the liturgy, as soundly and beautifully detailed in the post-conciliar document "Musicam Sacram", adhered to instead of the haphazard four-hymn sandwich with three extra "meditation songs". And if the guidelines of Musican Sacram were actually followed, we would actually have the "active participation" of the faithful that Vatican II called for instead of the 64-microphone concert or a loud imitation of a Spanish flea market. 

So you see, we simply want Vatican II to be ACTUALLY implemented. And in fact, Mr. Benedict-banger, this is precisely why the man you kick to the curb promulgated Summorum Pontificum. The post-Vatican II liturgy was never supposed to become, as Pope Benedict said, a cause of "deep pain to individuals totally rooted in the faith of the Church" (as it has for many of us), a pain caused "above all because...celebrations were not faithful to the prescriptions of the new Missal, but...understood as authorizing or even requiring creativity, which frequently led to deformations of the liturgy which were hard to bear.

Benedict goes on: "I am speaking from experience, since I too lived through that period with all its hopes and its confusion. And I have seen how arbitrary deformations of the liturgy caused deep pain to individuals totally rooted in the faith of the Church."

You got that Kiko? "Arbitrary deformations of the liturgy"!! This is why the General Instruction for the Roman Missal is NOT a book of "suggestions" as you Kiko's claim (and sadly even non-Kiko's treat it), but a prescription ordered to preserve the liturgy and the belief of the faithful from arbitrary and deformed Kiko's like you. And you speak of MY incardinating myself???
Now that we have Francis as our Pope and you see his Jesuit Style in Pastoral Care, in shepherding our flock, you feel it necessary to go ahead and incardinate yourself as church hierarchy. 
WHO has authorized himself to arbitrarily deform the liturgy? Who has ordained, incardinated, and even consecrated himself (since he acts like a bishop)? And we might as well throw "canonize" into that list since he even has his own holy card (pictured above).  And who is it here that is giving the Magisterium the finger and saying go to hell we'll do what we want? Your pathetic little attempt to marginalize me as a medieval reactionary simply tells me I'm winning and you're worried, doesn't it? Let's go on. 
Youve done a good job at it because you now have faithful followers who consider every notion that you have as truth. You fail to correct them, then causing more conflict because it raises an argument that could have been avoided. 
You see. I AM winning. You give me here the authority of a bishop. Really? It's my duty as a layman with no letters before or after my name and nothing more than a personal blog to CORRECT THEM! Really? The archbishop has the power of the pulpit, the crozier and the mitre and it is MY duty to correct them??? The archbishop only has to say that the Neocatechumenal Way is authorized to distribute communion differently than the rest of us and I everyone would stand corrected. But he has not, because he cannot. 

Let's review. In the NCW "eucharist":
  1. The priest does not consume the sacred species before distributing to the communicants as he is required to do. 
  2. The communicants do not consume the consecrated bread "as soon as" they receive as WE ALL are required to do. 
In 2005, the NCW was ordered to stop these arbitrary deformations and conform to the liturgical books. A few weeks later the archbishop publicly mocked this instruction. A few days later, Pope Benedict publicly asked Kiko to conform. A few weeks later, Kiko told Benedict that he would not. Eight years later, you still do not. And your only apologia is that it is now eight years later. Sick. And it is I who have "incardinated" myself???

And "faithful followers"? Ummm, that's what the Kiko's like you have. No one on our side of this division follows me. Most are intelligent followers of the Catholic Church and see the same aberrations that I see. Nice try though. 

Personally, I could "give a crap" about what you do in your private little worlds, which is why I haven't said anything all these years. And in fact, I could still give a crap. But since you and the other Kiko's (because you lack the intelligence to engage my arguments) choose to attack me, choose to discredit me, choose to cowardly challenge me...well then now I GIVE A CRAP.  
You want truth but yet you yourself have failed at this and continue to push forward nonsense. Its time that you understand that the way in which you want to receive the information, documents etc. is not going to happen. You are creating a paper trail that only serves as evidence of your lack to confront the problem upfront. You want something from the Archbishop then go and see him. You know where he lives, eats and celebrates. Joy!
I'll let your last little display of pathetic idiocy speak for itself. Thanks for the opportunity. Come again. People like you drive up my numbers. 

45 comments:

  1. You go Tim! Who is this person??? I think everyone would like to know.

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  2. The only person I could think of that is very defensive towards you is Benjamin who is probably related to Diana.

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    1. Nah. It was too well written.

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    2. Okay, last try then I give up.....Father Adrian Cristobal or Msgr David. C. Quitugua

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    3. Not true, Tim, no one at the Chancery goes into the Jungle! AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH, HAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA

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    4. Ah, but YOU are HEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRRREEEEEE.

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    5. The archbishop does read junglewatch.

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    6. Here is something for the Archbishop to read....I wonder if Kiko got him tickets for front row seats for the canonization on Sunday?

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  3. Glad to be Back to Holy Mother ChurchApril 24, 2014 at 9:51 PM

    Anyone who has been in the Way is eventually taught to honor, respect, revere, worship ... Kiko. It is all just a matter of how long you are in vs what step you see him in.
    I do like your differentiation between the Kiko's and the Neos. I have kept contact with the true Neos that were a part of my community. But the Kikos have totally shunned me once they realized I was not coming back to "their Church". I pray for the Neos daily, and hope they do not become Kikos. I also pray they have the power I lacked to make changes from within.
    Regarding the prayer card at the top of this post, can you tell us what it says. I was told once but cannot recall enough to give a good translation, but I think it is an eye opener into Kiko's mind.

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    1. Go here http://www.internetica.it/neocatecumenali/english/kiko-symphonic.htm

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  4. From all that I have read about the Kikos, there is nothing beyond the way. To them outside the way is nothing but evil. We, the regular Catholics are part of that evil world. The “Kikos” want to re-evangelize the world whether the world likes or not as if though, and disregarding, numerous parish organizations in their view have not done a good job at it. Their way is the only correct way. Well, I beg to differ on that. The kikos are known as the “mamotretos” who guides the communities in their catechesis. Mind you, no document given to them. Everything is done orally and that is okay for them. Never mind the Catechism of the Catholic Church wide open for all to see. Only the Catechists- their guard post have access to them because the little ones will never understand the contents of it to begin with. This is the sadden thing of it all. Many stray away Catholics found God through the way, are totally misled, and have no clue. These fine Catholics have good intentions but do not realize the false teachings of the “kikos”. Penny

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    1. Thanks Tim for the attention given to my comment. It doesnt deserve it but I will take it gratis.
      Lets just be clear about one thing, I am not Fr. Adrian or Msgr. David, I am anonymous who chooses to remain anonymous on my own will.
      Why do I stay anonymous? To show that one does not need to be an ordained or a person who has been theologically educated. I do all my reading freely and on my own will.
      1. I do not kick Pope Emeritus Benedict XVI to the curb. You have done so. I only state the obvious. I only bring this up because I know for a fact that many of you who oppose the NCW on this blog all belong to same group, people who have left their parishes not because of the NCW but because you spend more time keeping tabs on the indirect abuses happening in our regular Sunday Masses. This keeping tabs has tired you and now you find Heaven at the Friary with Fr. Eric, a pastor who I admire too.
      2. Yes you have faithful followers and it is very evident on this blog. You call me coward and idiot but on the contrary these followers of yours didnt have the guts to speak out before you, you are all victims of each other.

      You have said on many occasions, Show me the permission. As many times as you have asked, you have answered your own request.
      You want to talk about idiocy, you were the first to take this route. NCW members only entered on this blog to defend what they do know about the NCW. When ever this happened, it was you who responded with name calling. Even to this day I have not seen anyone refer to you with the demeaning titles that you have used against pro NCW commenters.

      I dont know how to explain your concept of revealing what you think to be important information that will shake the foundations of the NCW on Guam. You keep using it as a way to threaten the NCW to "shut up or else". Whats the wait for? This is not the first time that you said you will reveal it and then only to not deliver. Lets have at it. If our faith is strong what you have will have not shake it.
      Why do you continue to hold on to it. According to your mentality it only goes against you, because the more you wait, the more the faithful on Guam will suffer.
      You know what is right. In the same way that you assume that the leaders of the NCW are discouraging taking part in this blog, I bet your spiritual director is telling you the same, yet you choose to be disobedient. Its about time you take your actions your choice of words to prayer.
      You are getting very desperate with your attempts and your recklessness is showing itself.
      Maybe your apologetic skills are weakening or maybe rather than defending the Catholic Church you are beginning to defend your definition of Church.
      While your at it, can you just post up all the other comments that you did not approve. Joy!

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    2. That is not a prayer card. It was a card that was released during the debut of the Symphony that Kiko orchestrated. The Suffering of the Innocents.

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  5. To 9:15p.m. God Bless You ! You have the gift of faith. The Holy Spirit is guiding you and that is certainly the power that only God can give. No one else! Penny

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  6. You people on this page need to learn to respect kiko, and Carmen, and the people they empower here on Guam. Kiko has helped with the faith revival of Guam. The faith of the island was dead for many years until the way came among us. What would have happened on Guam if the way had not have arrived here. This church would be dead now, the people had no faiith depth pre 19995. We were dry land with no water, dry bones. But the way came, gave answers to our church, renewed our church, gave hope to archbishop,and he saw that the answers to guams church problems, were answers in the way. The way has saved Guam and given it life by introducing kiko's spiritual life to dry if not dead wood.

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    1. Exactly what a kikokuko would say.
      If the the church was dead as you say, how is it then that that we have over twenty parishes?
      If the church were dead as you say, how is it that The bishop is able to retain his residence on the hill?
      The reality of it is, perhaps you were "dead". get over yourself and wake up!

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    2. I wonder who killed the life of the Catholic Church on Guam, was it the lack of faith from the people or lack of input from the leadership who wants only recognition. I have noticed the difference between the seriouness of the previous leader and the smirk of this one. The previous was "let us" and this one is "I am, not us" Jes of Chalan Pago.

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  7. I've noticed they only use the Eucharistic Prayer 2 but of course add a few of their changes to it. Probably because the other prayers contain the word sacrifice.

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    1. The Sanctus, Sanctus words also changes depending on the liturgical season of the church.

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  8. The Neocatechumenal Way forms existing and vibrant small communities inside the Catholic Church. These communities share the the real presence of the Lord through the Spirit and therefore produce innumerable fruits for the faithful. We have never said these are the only communities possible inside the church. Far from the truth! We only realize the powerful potential the Lord is giving us that He is also giving to every believer. Other communities, apart from the Way, are excessively welcome! Please, form your own communities and give the Catholic faithful the experience they are looking for by involving them in new communities. Nobody has ever claimed all community "must be" Neocatechumenal. Our communities are existing and growing all around the world. I challenge you to create your own Catholic communities or small groups, apart from the Way, that are existing, growing and filled by the presence of the Lord. So you would also experience the Eucharist as a true celebration with your sisters and brothers. Then you would see for yourself that not the Way is the only one. It is only one of those that work the fruits.

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    1. Ah, yes. I see the problem. You don't know the difference between the real presence and the Real Presence. As for communities, mine is called a mother and a father and eleven children. This is the community God gave me and to which I made a sacramental commitment. You?

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    2. A community is greater than the family. You are right and rightly admired for your family and family values. Kudos from the heart! But you should be able to look beyond your immediate family and take communion with other faithful Catholic believers, who just wanna share the Joy of the Lord. This is exactly what the communities in the Way do. So stop being suspicious about us. You only have to open your heart half way. The other half is on the Lord, who is truly and really present, and will help you to overcome your doubts.

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    3. I see. So the "community is greater than the family." Yes, we've been made aware of that. And I don't "take communion with other faithful"???

      Not suspicious about you at all. Everything is very clear. Thank you.

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    4. "A community is greater than the family."

      Well, that's just completely terrible. Unfortunately this is the case for many in the Neo. And believe me, their families know and feel it.

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    5. Glad to be back in Holy Mother ChurchApril 26, 2014 at 11:44 AM

      "A community is greater than the family."

      Unfortunately, this is foundational for the NCW. I have personally felt this pressure, and I have seen many others in the NCW struggle with this demand of Kiko.

      I have come to realize that in life GOD must be number one, then family number two then the greater community/society is number three.

      This fixation of NCW community before family is very troubling. Many theologians point to modern societal problems and link it to the breakdown of the family unit. And here we have a Catholic movement also causing a weakening of family. They want to replace the family with a new NCW family.

      Some have theorized that because neither Kiko or Carmen or Fr Mario have their own families, they disregard and do not understand the beauty and importance of family. Thank God the Catholic Church does not subscribe to the NCW notion that family falls below faith community in importance.

      I pray Rome will fix some of these very damaging teachings of Kiko and Carmen and Fr Mario.

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    6. Community is on a higher level than the family this is a clear kiko directive.

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  9. Out of context, out of context. YOU only interpret what you would like to believe. Let see here a layman who never set foot inside the Vatican........ Who do I believe? The guy who does not have any communication with four Popes. The Popes that dissect it and approve it and the current Pope cancelled the investigation about the way. And the audience here continue to feed off the negativity. Hmmmmmmm. Kiko, Carmen and Fr.Mario they spoke to the Pope's. Yeah I side with them. Jealousy ....Why? I don't see you drawing 2,000 people in your Bible studies, hahahaha. The rotten fruits you bear........ And to Glad to be Back to Holy Mother ChurchApril 24, 2014 at 9:51 PM YOU ARE TRUE evidence of true CATHOLIC CHRISTIAN. I can't wait to see you in the other side.
    Lastly, NEWS FLASH Pope Emeritus and Pope Francis are DEFENDING the way. LETTER SENT OUT. STAY TUNED BUBBAS! LOL!

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    1. Another example of the "fruit" of the Neocatechumenal Way. Full of peace, love joy! Truly wonderful evangelism. Can't think of why anyone would not want to join you. BTW. Been to the Vatican many times. And how's that "respect" coming Pope Francis told you all to have? Never mind.

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    2. So the letter comes out and so we did, dig, dig, on the scandal that happened 30+ years ago. You would be surprised who is involved!

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  10. Tim, you wrote this:

    "Let's review. In the NCW "eucharist":

    The priest does not consume the sacred species before distributing to the communicants as he is required to do.
    The communicants do not consume the consecrated bread "as soon as" they receive as WE ALL are required to do."

    Here is my question: so what? What is your problem with this? Stop repeating your simpleton arguments that have been refuted and disproved many times. A community is one body as we learn it from the Bible and acts as one body. This is the end of story.

    We cannot care anymore about you own personal problems of non-acceptance and denial, your distaste and opposition. It is a challenge for you and nobody else to overcome your bitter feelings. Lo, the world is moving on and not coming back to the same old things again and again that have been passed irrevocably, once and for all. Cheers!

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    1. "So what?" This is great, Zoltan. You make my point better than I can make it myself. Everyone, behold: SO WHAT? That's the Kiko answer. But then we knew that. Nice to see that I bother you enough to keep you coming back. Just knowing that this blog makes you itch makes it worth it. Cheers.

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    2. So why don't you just come up with the old and irrelevant transcript from some 6-7 years ago? Why don't you make us laugh? You sit on it as on a treasure and hold it back for the fun of it. But your treasure has already been crumpled, crumbled and eaten by the moths... You don't even realize what useless crap is that you are sitting on, do you?

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    3. Oh, it's not "useless crap" at all, Zoltan. The very fact that I have it makes you scratch and scratch...which is why you're back, isn't it. You can't sleep. You can't think. You can't even breath without thinking JungleWatch, JungleWatch, JUNGLEWATCH!!!! You're fun.

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    4. Oh, sure, absolutely... Your jungle is my tv. Day and night, as you think, 7/ 24. Lol and lol again! :) :)

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    5. Great. Thanks for adding to my numbers.

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    6. Zoltan, how is this okay with you? How can you be made aware that the Neo is NOT in compliance with its own statute and NOT in compliance with what the Magisterium requires, and still be okay with that?! How can you even call yourself CATHOLIC?? How foolish of you!

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    7. Zoltan you really are a joke! For such a supposedly learned person, why are you back here if it really is "so what"?
      Uhmm, let me see,.... junglewatch blog belongs to Tim Rohr, he can talk about any damn thing he wants to, that is what a blog is about. You keep playing in the jungle trying to win an argument that you never will, when you really should be out doing your neo catechesis.
      And to anoymous who said "A community is greater than the family".
      Really? what is the model for your community? Is it not patterned after the family? Does not the church understand the family to be the basic community? After which is the parish community? You see this is the norm, so what does that make your community?

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    8. Janet B - MangilaoApril 26, 2014 at 11:50 AM

      "so what does that make your community?"

      The neo is an alternate church, a wolf in sheep's clothing. Only problem they cannot deal with is they never expected so much pushback from Guam. We have got them scrambling, they are bewildered that our faith is so strong that we cannot be led away by foreign invaders.
      Benedict Apuron - take note...your days are counted!

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  11. So What! You take the Holy Eucharist so lightly as if though it was just a piece of bread nothing more. Are you sure your Catholic?? You have no authority to say what you claim! The regulations regarding the sacred liturgy is solely under authority of the Apostolic See, (Church)
    A priest must consume the host at the altar (table of sacrifice) each time he celebrates the Holy Mass before he proceeds to the distribution of Holy Communion. The priest is never to wait until the congregation communion is concluded before receiving Communion himself. You should take time to look at the General Instructions of the Roman Missal. You sure are making up your own religion. Penny.

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  12. To: Zoltan – Because you think community is more important than family, it appears to be a “Sect” group. I wil break it down for you. Here it is. A “sect” comes from the Latin, secta, past verb sequor means “to follow” or “sectus” “to cut” . So a sect is a group and the doctrines it teaches that a person follows and cut itself off from the major body. Even if it means that your community is more important than family. The church teaches that in the home, the family is the “DOMESTIC CHURCH”, where it becomes the center of living faith. Because you believe that community comes first over family, you are narrowed minded and do not deal with the outside world. Why? This is what you translate. Everything outside the community are full of evil and idolatry including family. You are saying that not anyone outside the community belongs. Have you ever thought that maybe afterall the idolatry is THE WAY ITSELF! Penny

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