"You die as if you are falling asleep and you awake in the resurrection. In an instant you pass from this world to glory, whether or not millions of years have gone by. This is why we Christians do not weep for our dead as the pagans do, for our brothers and sisters who die are alive.” (p. 277)This might explain their "conga-line" funeral services. Solemnity be damned!
Chuck speaks as if Purgatory is a place with a duration of time. He is totally applying his interpretation of the CCC, which is why we will always clash on these issues. According to how I was catechized I was taught that as I leave this life and journey into the presence of Jesus. Jesus' love for me gets rid of all my sins and impurities and readies me for a life in the presence of God. The Kerygma can be summed up in one line, "GOD LOVES ME!" If I believe in the powerful love of God then I am lead to believe that this love conquers even death and brings me to Him in an instance, after all, this is what God wants, for us to dwell with him in heaven, where he has prepared a place for us. Dont you agree?See you have taken an excerpt from a "copy" of the Catechetical Directory of the NCW and judged it, scrutinized it. Based on this alone you feel you can expose the flaws. However, There are no flaws. Joy!
What a curious reply. You begin by criticizing Chuck for "applying his interpretation of the CCC" and then you begin your counter argument with "According to how I was catechized…". And "as I leave this life…" That's quite different than what the church teaches when the CCC says "after death". But thanks for the comment. Once again we learn more about what Kiko really teaches. Looking forward to learning more.
P.S. You can discredit both Chuck and me and all your critics by simply showing us exactly what Kiko does teach about purgatory. It's real easy. Just quote his teaching on Purgatory and source it. We will stand corrected.
Refer to Pope Emeritus then Cardinal Ratzingers book on Eschatology. What I shared is Pope Benedicts explanation which you assume to only be an NCW teaching. Joy!
Who gave Kiko the authority to have his own version of the Catholic faith's stance on purgatory? It seems like this man is just taking key beliefs and twisting it into what he wants it to be. Dangerous.
@3:20pm. A couple things. First, the writings of individual theologians, even one who would one day be pope, are always just the writings of individual theologians, and while they may help further illumine and define church doctrine, they never trump it. However, as we should expect from Ratzinger, his theology is entirely in harmony with the church's teaching on purgatory. God's love is the "refining fire" that we experience in pain and suffering here on earth and after death, if need be, to purify us for heaven:CCC 1472 To understand this doctrine and practice of the Church, it is necessary to understand that sin has a double consequence. Grave sin deprives us of communion with God and therefore makes us incapable of eternal life, the privation of which is called the "eternal punishment" of sin. On the other hand every sin, even venial, entails an unhealthy attachment to creatures, which must be purified either here on earth, or after death in the state called Purgatory. This purification frees one from what is called the "temporal punishment" of sin. These two punishments must not be conceived of as a kind of vengeance inflicted by God from without, but as following from the very nature of sin. A conversion which proceeds from a fervent charity can attain the complete purification of the sinner in such a way that no punishment would remain.
Tim, it is just a request for clarification. What do you mean be unhealthy attachment to creatures? This includes my family and loved ones?
It's a quote from the Catechism. Par. 1472
This is okay from the Catechism. I did not question it. But I still don't exactly understand it. You might have some more detailed explanation on file...
Yes, I do. Thank you for the interest. Am working on a post now.
“But didn’t Vatican II do away with the idea of purgatory?"No. The fathers of the Second Vatican Council, in Lumen Gentium, the Dogmatic Constitution on tbe Church [49-50] confirmed the teaching on purgatory of the Ecumenical Councils of Lyon, Florence and of Trent. They said, among other things, that the union of those on earth, with those being purified in Purgatory and those in heaven is strengthened by a “communication of spiritual goods” and that “ the pilgrim Church from the very first ages of the Christian religion has cultivated with great piety the memory of the dead, and "because it is a holy and wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins", also offers suffrages for them. ”
Anon 2:43am, I made no mention whatsoever of "time". God transcends time, and His purification of us does too. And Jesus's love certainly cleanses us, although the Church has consistently reminded us that we will not be refined without some suffering. In this sense, Kiko is deforming the Gospel.In his first letter to the Corinthians, St. Paul refers to a foundation, Jesus, on which one builds with “gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw… If the work which any man has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If any man’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.” 1 Corinthians 3: 11-15.
Well, "purgatory" is a self-created place of torture where the Catholic Church locked itself to suffer till the end of time. Thus created its own fate for himself.Purgatory is a pure invention without any basis in the Bible. 1 Cor 3:11-15 is about earthly suffering of the doubter who did not collect precious stones of faith, but squandered and burned his treasure of Biblical truth. Now he has to get everything anew "as through fire". The idea of purgatory is the great heresy of the Catholic Church. Catholic priests use scare tactics to distort money and submission from their members for their beloved ones whom they say are "suffering in the purgatory". They fool the believer that only priests can intercede for them. But this is not true. There is only but one intercessor:"My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have an advocate with the Father -- Jesus Christ, the Righteous One." (1 John 2:1)Christian fellow from Yona
Ah, yes. Unable to answer any of my questions to him, Christian fellow disappears and resurfaces to crap on Catholics once again. What a miserable, angry, lonely, nothing better to do, person you must be. It's also obvious that you don't know jack crap about today's Catholic Church. The great heresy today is that Catholic priests completely avoid any mention of purgatory. Most of their sermons at funeral masses have the dead already in heaven partying with relatives. But thanks for the opportunity to say this again. The Catholic Church does not follow a book because Jesus didn't leave us one. I'll have some more fun with you later, so be sure to check back often.
Now if I was a non-believer and you presented me with two options, first Kiko's option and second the Church's option to go through purgatory, I would likely join the 'kiko club'. I mean who wants to go through purgatory...right? and of course the bigger the club more money....oops I'll save that for later.
If I had the power to change Catholic teachings to make it REALLY attractive to modern folks, I'd for sure get rid of purgatory. I'd also get rid of the notion of the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist, and the Resurrection of the Body. Resurrection, okay, but not Resurrection of our old bodies. I'd also dump the notion of God as a Judge. God isn't violent. Oh, and I can't forget to throw away that Jesus' death was a sacrifice. Again, God isn't violent. That's where I'd start anyway. Just saying.
Our Catechist would always tell us(it came from Fr. Pius etc.) that if a funeral conflicts with a NCW-NEO event or function, skip the funeral or rosary. They said: let the dead bury the dead. There is nothing more you can do for them. Chuck White's analysis explains why. This is making a whole lot of sense. That is why they consider burying the dead a celebration with dancing, clapping, and exuberant singing. They believe that we go directly to heaven no mater how sinful we are! All ye murderers and abortionists---do not fear---keep it up---you will go directly to heaven so long as you..............become a NEOCAT.
Here's my question. ...Does this idea from the Kerygma apply only to those who reach a certain stage in the ncw, or does it apply as well to someone who just accepted your invitation to joy? Also is this belief meant for all Catholics or just ncw members?Kenneth G. San AgustinNo name hiding here!
while it may not be from scripture, there is a story about St. Pio, who one night, while eating with his fellow friars, jumped up from the table and ran into the kitchen. He was there for awhile, and when he returned and was asked what was going on, he responded that a soul in purgatory that he had been praying for was on its way now to heaven and stopped by to thank him for his prayers! I don't think St. Pio would fib about such a thing.I'll take the word of a man who suffered his whole life for the gospel over a man who claims himself an angel. :OBut hey, to bad for St. Pio he wasn't a neo...
Actually Purgatory is very clearly IN SCRIPTURE. Stay tuned.
maybe they think that fr pius sammut calling them "stupid" at a second scrutiny is purgatory enough
A long time ago Tim Rohr wrote a catholic apologist article on purgatory. It was very well written and presented clearly catholic teaching and spiritual understanding. I think it's on his other web page catholic apologists or something. Why these matters are important lets remain focused on what's happening on Guam.
Actually this is exactly why this is important. While we are disturbed by how Fr. Paul is being treated and by the many other problems on Guam, the REAL problem and thus the REAL danger is the insertion of a heresy into the Catholic Faith here on Guam, and really, all over the Catholic world via Kiko's religion, which we are increasingly discovering is not that of the Catholic Church.
I have heard several different explanations about what Purgatory is, and on why it is needed. One example that I like I heard at a baptismal prep class. The deacon explained Purgatory as a place where we are made perfect because scripture says nothing imperfect shall enter my kingdom. If we die with mortal sin on our soul we will go to hell. But if we sin and go to confession those sins are removed and sanctifying grace is restored. If we die in a state of sanctifying grace the Church teaches we are guaranteed Heaven. But those sins we committed in our lives leave scar tissue on our soul. Once those scars of past sins are removed, then we are perfected and we can go to heaven. And our prayers help with the removal of those scars.To illustrate he told us he had a deep cut on his hand about 40 years earlier. A few stitches and ten days later and the cut was completely healed, just like what confession does.Then he showed us his hand, and even though the cut was long ago healed, he still had a scar from that cut. He compared this to the scars our sins cause, and that purgatory is where these scars of past sins are removed and we are perfected.Tim, do our prayers help those souls in purgatory? What does the Church teach on this?How sad it is that the NCW teachings are different from the Catholic Church. How can they continue to get away with this? Why does the Vatican wait so long to correct their heresy? And lastly, why does our own Archbishop remain so silent, rather than correct these errors?These are very troubling times, times where we really need our leader.
Your last question answers everything. Rome does not act - at least not immediately - because the pope expects the bishops to do their job. Thus, the problem. Yes, our prayers help those in purgatory. More on this in an upcoming post.
Dearest Archbishop Anthony Sablan Apuron:I have just finished praying the rosary, and while meditating on the sorrowful mysteries I asked the Lord for double strength. One measure for me. That I might have the strength to believe that all issues in our Church will work out. Sometimes I have had doubts because of all that is happening. Sometimes in my weakness I have cursed at you, called you names, disrespected your self, and even sometimes your office. I will soon be going to confession and I will ask the Lord for forgiveness for how I have treated you publicly. Although I have previously proclaimed I will not respect you until you earn it, I will now show respect, the same respect that all people deserve to be shown. No more name calling on my part.A second measure of strength I pray for you Archbishop Anthony. Holy strength to come out of the silence and help us all to know and love our Church more. The strength to speak the truth always, in a kind and pastoral way. The strength to take a stand and let people know, from the Church’s perspective, what is right and what is wrong. The strength to forget past actions and to move forward in a unified manner on behalf of the local Church. Most especially the strength to follow the One, Holy, Catholic and Apostolic Church.In a respectful way, Archbishop, I want you to know that it is not too late to speak out at this time…it is never too late. We the people of Guam need to hear from our leader. So many questions have arisen. These questions affect different people in different ways, but many, like myself, have been shaken. Start now to set straight the many questions that have been unanswered for many months. Questions today on Purgatory...the NCW says one thing and the CCC says another. Dear Archbishop, you have the authority and the duty to set the record straight on exactly these types of issues that pop up. It appears to many that the NCW teachings are wrong, yet our Church leader does nothing to correct these errors or verify that those teachings are correctStart now to reconcile yourself with your priests. Start now by taking a fresh look at how assignments are made to determine if a change is in order. Ask yourself, if vocations are important, is the Archdiocese doing everything possible to foster all vocations? Reconcile with Fr Paul and do whatever is possible to save this wonderful vocation of his. Reopen the once beneficial dialogue you had with Tim Rohr, and open dialogue with those who have different opinions from you to consider all options.Archbishop, Rome put you in charge of the Church on Guam. You rightfully expect obedience from you priests. Expect the same obedience from everyone involved in liturgy. If the NCW is not following liturgical norms or standards, demand that these get corrected immediately. Never mind about what happens in Spain or Poland, or elsewhere in the NCW communities, but at least insure they are following correct standards here.Lastly, I pray you have the strength to be more transparent. Many financial allegations have arisen. Show us the books so we may know once and for all what the truth is about money and the NCW, and money and you, and money and the parishes.If wrong has been committed, then correct those problems from happening again, and take appropriate action against anyone who has committed these problems, even if it is yourself.Dearest Archbishop, I pray that you may boldly stand and be heard. Now is the time for all truth. Amen!
I hope you sent this directly to the Archbishop as well. Well written!
We could start with what Rev. 21:27 says about heaven, "But nothing unclean shall enter it..." and realize that our growth in holiness might not be complete on the day we die, even if we've lived a repentant life and trusted in Jesus as our Savior. Then what? Well, God makes good on his promises and perfects our holiness, removing from us any unhealthy attachment to sin which we cling too. We understand from 2 Maccabees 12:238-45 that prayers for the dead can greatly help in this process.By the way, check here for some good locally written articles on the topic: http://cegguam.org/category/doctrine/last-things/purgatory/
Posted on Diana's blog:Tuesday, May 20, 2014God Provides Once again, the Neocatechumenal Way is out in the public squares evangelizing. Every community has their own public square, which started after Easter. If I am not mistaken, a community was even born as a result of the Great Mission. Going in two by twos was also a great experience. The first time is always the hardest and the scariest. But eventually, it gets easier. A few years ago, the RMS priests and seminarians also ventured on a serious two by two mission for two weeks. They started out in Colorado and were assigned to different parts of the United States and Canada. During those two weeks, they brought no money or luggage. They have only their bible and passport. Just as Christ sent His disciples in two by twos, telling them not to bring any money with them, so were the RMS priests and seminarians instructed to do the same. Because they were out on the streets for two weeks without any change of clothes and without showering, some people looked down on them. Although most of them slept on the streets, no harm came to them. God provided. Some of the stories I heard from these priests were very inspiring. While on the streets for two weeks without money, they did not starve. They are a sign showing that God indeed provides. The reason God took His chosen people, the Israelites, into the desert is to show the world that He can provide them with everything they needed. God still provides today as He did with those priests and seminarians who went on a two by two mission without money, food, or luggage. They only took their passport and bible with them. For those two weeks, God provided for them, and they came back with interesting stories to tell. Posted by Diana at 3:08 PM To me it seems more like a way to glorify ones self to others back home when they return. Look what I did! Really? How effective were they? Sounds like they were hungry, sleepy, cold, and hardly anyone would listen to them. I wonder who paid for tickets.
They could have easily done the same thing here for less $. I bet they didn't fly back stinky and dirty. Probrably, after all said and done, checked into hotel, cleaned up and went out on the town to have a great time; I imagine. Anyone can go live like the homeless and survive. They just spent lots of money to do it.
So tell me, what have you done over the past 2 weeks?
Diana did not listen to the Archbishop's homily during the Chrism Mass.....Out with the old, in with the new....not the exact words but the same context when he mentioned holding on to tradition by not moving forward. This is here post about Tim's remark On May 17, 2014, Junglewatch posted a post entitled For Those Who Think I Am The Cause Of Division, Tim Rohr published his comment in response to an anonymous poster who asked why the study was ordered. According to Tim Rohr: This study was ordered because the situation had become unbeatable and hostilities were breaking out amongst the clergy. The study accomplished nothing because the Archbishop is secure in his belief that the NCW is the new order of the church and that the old must pass away. This comment from Tim Rohr is incorrect, but he stated it because his main agenda is to make the Neocatechumenal Way look evil in every way. According to the report in the Survey, which was conducted in 2010:
@ anon 10:33You say that Tim's comment is incorrect, but you don't provide evidence to support your claim, only that he wants to make the Non Catholic Way look evil. Then you reference the 2010. Your comment is really worthless to those of us who are able to see beyond the Kikobot mentality. Please try to explain your point again, and how it is related to the string of posts; I am curious to know.
@10:30pm. And you're asking because....?
At anon May 20 10:30 p.m.I don't believe in glorifying myself to others. Whatever good I have done to others should be between God and me. I learned that along time ago, but it seems that the NCW believes the opposite and using every opportunity to advertise the things that they have done. Kiko stands in front of the people and pretty say look at my fruit. Kiko offers fruit from the forbidden tree.Matthew 6:5 “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.Matthew 6:1-34 “Beware of practicing your righteousness before other people in order to be seen by them, for then you will have no reward from your Father who is in heaven. “Thus, when you give to the needy, sound no trumpet before you, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may be praised by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward. But when you give to the needy, do not let your left hand know what your right hand is doing, so that your giving may be in secret. And your Father who sees in secret will reward you. “And when you pray, you must not be like the hypocrites. For they love to stand and pray in the synagogues and at the street corners, that they may be seen by others. Truly, I say to you, they have received their reward.
Anon 10:05 a.m. Guess I mistakenly left out the " " as I copied and pasted from Diana's blog. She was the one who stated that Tim was incorrect .
Tim,What are your thoughts on this post by Diana?Sunday, May 18, 2014Pope Francis Backs the Neocatechumenal Way Liturgy During the Lenten announcement, a letter was read to the communities. Kiko Arguello had written a letter to Pope Francis because some of the things he stated on his February 1st address were taken out of context. The Pope then wrote to Kiko, assuring him that he stands beside him. This event has now been published on May 16, 2014. One can read the full story below: Pope Francis Backs the Neocatechumenal WayAccording to the news report (the bold is my emphasis). I also underlined Paschal Vigil: The Vatican Secretariat of State sent a letter on April 3rd from the Holy Father to Kiko Arguello, initiator of the Neocatechumenal Way, along with Carmen Hernandez, confirming the liturgical praxis of the Way with regards to the Eucharist and the Paschal Vigil. In the letter, the Holy Father confirms that "as far as it pertains to the celebrations of the Paschal Vigil and the Sunday Eucharist, [...] articles 12 and 13 [of the Statutes], read in their entirety, constitute therefore the regulatory charter of reference." This letter was in response to a letter sent previously by Kiko Arguello in which he told the Pope of his concern about several negative interpretations of the words of the Holy Father addressed to a group of some 12,000 neocatechumens on February 1st, 2014. In his response, Pope Francis not only confirmed the full validity of the Statute of the Neocatechumenal Way, but acknowledged "the evangelizing dynamism of the Neocatechumenal way, the experience of authentic conversion of life of so very many faithful, and the fruits of good generated thanks to the presence of the communities all over the world." The Pope confirms his "paternal closeness" and sent "loving encouragement to [Arguello] and to all adherents to the Way." The letter concludes assuring the initiator of the Way of the "closeness" and "memory in the Lord" of Pope Francis, while sending "from his heart to you, to the International Team and to all the adherents to the Neocatechumenal Way, his Apostolic Blessing." As I have been saying all along..... because the Statutes mentions the Easter Vigil, this is already an indication that the Holy See has allowed us to celebrate the Easter Vigil and that our Easter Vigil is one with the Easter Vigil of the Parish. Yet, those who oppose the Way constantly cite Church law in the GIRM or the Roman Missal, which stated that there is to be only ONE Easter Vigil. So, to those who accused the NCW of going against Church law in the GIRM because you state that "there should only be ONE Easter Vigil".......I "RECOMMEND" that you take it up with the Pope who has confirmed our celebration of the Easter Vigil as well as the Eucharist. To the brothers in the Way, celebrate!!!! Pope Francis has given us his APOSOLIC BLESSING!!! To the anonymous person who wrote me, I thank you for your comments. I did not publish it as I see that it was meant for me alone. You are correct that they have already made up their minds. I appreciate your sound advice. God bless you for keeping me on a straight path. Posted by Diana at 8:18 PM
I heard some of those stories and in one of them, a priest from Australia and who was incardinated in Guam for expediency reasons and is now hanging out in the Bay area said that he ran into his old friends and they treated him lavishly during the whole time! lol. They were also told that in every place they go, visit the pastor first because they need converting the most. It's that same attitude again--if you are not a neocat, you are going to hell.