Tuesday, September 23, 2014


My comments are not needed other than to call your attention to the fact that  Zoltan names "Diana" an "authentic source". This is why we believe the kiko's are gnostics and not Catholics. In the Catholic Church, "authentic sources" do not hide behind pseudonyms and secret texts. 

  1. Okay, Tim, I made it clear for you that I am not talking for the NeoCatechumenal Way, I am walking in the Way, but I am not talking for the Way in any sense! Please, keep this in mind. If you want to learn more from authentic source, please consult Diana, who is well prepared to give you explanation in any part of the NeoCatechumenal practices. She had made it very clear several times how the Presence of Jesus Christ is understood in the Eucharist. It is a Real Presence more than anything.


    Having this said, I would share my own take on this particular Catholic teaching. As a scientists, I cannot hold anything true that contradicts science. I believe, most of Jesus' miracles do have explanation by science, if science is properly understood as manifestation of God's law in the nature. God would never contradict God, therefore Jesus would never contradict good and Godly science.

    Now, at transubstantiation the texture of bread and wine would not change. This is the real miracle that the Lord still appears real in the consecrated bread and wine. This is the meaning of Real Presence. If you have evidence of textural changes, please present it at once! The fact is that consecrated wine can transfer diseases and consecrated bread can mold if not taken good care of. This is proof that Real Presence would not involve textural changes.

    As Psalm 2:10 says: " My flesh also will rest in hope. For You will not leave my soul in Sheol, Nor will You allow Your Holy One to see corruption." Or as written in Acts 2:27: "Moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope: Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption." This is the Body of Christ.


  1. There actually have been documented cases of textual, physical changes to the bread and wine. Upon transubstantiation, the bread and wine have turned into literal blood and flesh. Search "Eucharistic Miracles" for more info.

  2. LOL
    You seem to be contradicting yourself there Zoltan. Your chosen scripture reference refutes what you said, mold, passing of germs, etc.
    "You will not suffer your holy one to see corruption." The Eucharistic miracles spoken about by AnonymousSeptember 23, 2014 at 8:38 AM were allowed for people like you, the doubters. Have you not heard of the bread made flesh, which is hundreds of years old? As a "scientist" you must know that often, our eyes can fool us, which is why we do not rely on our eyes but on the word of God, "this is my body, which is given up for you".
    Not this is a symbol of my body, or my body will mysteriously combine with this bread, or this is my body if you believe it, Rather "this IS my body" period, no if's and's or but's.

  3. Council of Trent
    Thirteenth Session
    which is under the Supreme Pontiff, Julius III,
    celebrated on the eleventh day of October, 1551

    Decree concerning the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist

    Chapter VII
    Canons on the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist

    Canon 3. If anyone denies that in the venerable sacrament of the Eucharist the whole Christ is contained under each form when separated, let him be anathema.

    Canon 4. If anyone says that after the consecration is completed, the body and blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ are not in the admirable sacrament of the Eucharist, but are there only in usu, while being taken and not before or after, and that in the hosts or consecrated particles which are reserved or which remain after communion, the true body of the Lord does not remain, let him be anathema.

    (Anathema is a word used in the early Church which essentially means excommunication. Is is to be noted and understood that "public" excommunication is not the initial separation of someone from the Church. It begins in the heart of the Catholic who denies the teachings of the Church.)

    1. Oh poor Zoltan. He just couldn’t help himself …

      First, he is sure to be reprimanded by “Edivaldo and His Girls” (BKA “Diana”) for returning to The Jungle after he was directed — and he promised — to stay away. His latest announcement to “officially quit JungleWatch” — having returned in February 2014 after declaring he was done with JungleWatch in December 2013 — was made in April here http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2014/04/the-mission-of-church.html?showComment=1398482407713#c6856333579512242136.

      Second, he considers “Diana” — who claims to be a “young woman” who has been walking for only 8 years — to be an “authentic source” for all things related to the NCW. By “her” own admission, “she” is “still very young” in her journey as admitted here http://neocatechemunal.blogspot.com/2014/02/purpose-of-way.html?showComment=1393548854372#c5171378737282107702. Wouldn’t it make more sense to refer to someone with more experience in the NCW — like one of the catechists?
      Sorry — I forgot: This is Zoltan, who is not too concerned with making sense …

      Finally, Zoltan seems to be woefully ignorant of the “evidence of textural changes” of the Consecrated Bread and Wine that occurred in the Eucharistic Miracle of Lanciano in 750. In two separate scientific investigations it was determined that, among many other results: (1) The Flesh is real Flesh and Blood is real Blood; (2) Both Flesh and Blood belong to human species; (3) The Flesh consists of the muscular tissue of the Heart; (4) The preservation of the Flesh and of the Blood, which were left in their natural state for twelve centuries and exposed to the action of atmospheric and biological agents, remains an extraordinary phenomenon.
      If he wishes, Zoltan can get more information at http://www.therealpresence.org/eucharst/mir/lanciano.html.

      BTW: Thank you to Jose M. for his reference to the Council of Trent's Canons on the Most Holy Sacrament of the Eucharist. I doubt that it will make any impression upon Zoltan since he, like other members of the NCW, have accepted Kiko Argüello’s version of Salvation History: that the Catholic Church essentially apostatised between the times of Emperor Constantine and Vatican Council II from which sprang the NCW. Still, it is excellent information for the rest of us.

    2. Well, well, well... NeoCat Zoltan is jumping the bandwagon! Lol. Let's see some benefit of his unexpected visit at Jungle Watch.

      Here is a question for you, dear Zoltan: I wish I could get an intelligent explanation as of why the Council at Trent is so much hated in NeoCat circles. Did not the Holy Spirit lead the council to formulate basic faith documents? What is wrong with you guys at the NeoCat in denying that? You claim to be guided by the Holy Spirit. But this is not the Holy Spirit of God that leads you, but an unholy spirit of your cult masters! Saying that Trent is not valid is denying the Church, denying the Pope, denying the work of the Holy Spirit. What about this puzzling and frightening attitude in the NeoCat, Zoltan? Are you still feeling Catholic at all?

      Well, your request to look into the texture of the Holy Bread as if it is the Body of our Lord or not is just a sign of your unbelief! Are you aware of that, professor Zoltan? You may look into your electron microscope, but if you have no faith then you won't see anything. The sad news is that subjecting the Holy Eucharist to scientific experimentation and microscopic inspection is an indication of doubting the Lord! Now, you know that the Body of Christ is not for doubters but for the faithful.

      There is only one way to get out of this NeoCat trap of loosing your faith. Pray with the father of the little child in Mark 9:24. "The father of the child cried out and said with tears, “Lord, I believe; help my unbelief!” Are you man enough Zoltan, to pray this prayer?!

    3. To further that thought, to deny that the fathers of the church and the councils after Constantinople (think Thomas Aquinas and Trent among others) were guided by the Holy Spirit because the church was in apostasy (ncw teaching) is to call Jesus a liar.
      "And I say to thee: That thou art Peter; and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."
      Matthew 16:18
      Douay-Rheims Bible
      And then to say that all of a sudden, at your convenience, the Holy Spirit came and corrected the church with the second Vatican council, and kiko and his robots are the angels sent by God is ridiculous and without merit. Sounds very Jehovah witness to me...

    4. Yep. Thus Kiko's "timeline": http://www.junglewatch.info/2014/09/kikos-history-of-catholic-church.html

  4. "Do not think of the bread and wine as mere bread and wine, for they constitute the body and blood of Christ by the Lord's own declaration. For even if your sense experience suggest this to you, let your faith rather confirm it for you. Do not judge the matter from taste. Rather, from your faith become fully persuaded without doubting, because you have been made worthy of the body and blood of Christ."
    ----St Cyril of Jerusalem Catechetical Lectures 6.

  5. Why do they sit to consume but stand to drink? What is the difference in the consumation of the Body and Blood of Christ?

    1. The first thing that comes to mind is innovation where none is needed nor allowed. It's what happens when liturgy is fabricated contrary to the wisdom of the teachings of the Church.

      I cannot find any documents of any instructions or an order of the NCW service . . . no really, you cannot find one. Experiencing the NCW service is very confusing and wanting of clarity. The official statutes state that the instructions of the GIRM of the Roman Rite is to be followed (albeit the exceptions stated in the statutes), but clearly in experiencing one of these services, they are not.

      They claim that their intent is good, yet they also remain willingly and willfully in error. Why does it matter? Well, the Church thought it does that there is much documentation on the liturgy. What I cant understand is that even when charitably guided to correct these errors, the NCW, especially the clergy, would rather remain obstinate.

  6. Carmen Hernandez, an ex-nun and founder of the Neocatechumenal Way, is said to have told a priest that if Christ wanted to be among us in this manner, he would have come as a stone not bread that goes moldy. Zoltan seems to have confirmed this teaching by discussing the possibility of the consecrated bread to mold along with referencing Psalm 2, strongly implying that the consecrated species cannot possibly be the Body of Christ. A glimpse into the dark heart of Kikoism...

    We would do well to heed Pope John Paul II's warning: "Unfortunately, alongside these lights, there are also shadows... At times one encounters an extremely reductive understanding of the Eucharistic mystery. Stripped of its sacrificial meaning, it is celebrated as if it were simply a fraternal banquet." Pope John Paul II, Ecclesia de Eucharistia 10

    Kiko's Sacramental Problems

    1. Chuck, I found Zoltan's quoting of the Bible outrageous. 1. molding of the consecrated bread is pure speculation, remains unconfirmed. 2. it would be a violation of everything Catholic to experiment with the holy host like this, I would not be surprised however if NeoCat priests would do just that. Once a sect, ever a sect! The Body of Christ is nevertheless inviolable and incorruptible.

  7. Maybe spiritual aspects are too "make believe" or "man made" for this scientist Zoltan and as such he quite possibly refutes to accept "some" aspects of Cannon law. I for one am not a Scientist but my understanding of science is that it is based on cause and effect.

    Perhaps the scientist side of Zoltan would gain a greater appreciation of the research side of science through Quantum Physics. Noetic Science Institute, although not a Catholic organization does collaborate with religious organizations, values the mystics and has produced quantifiable research and proof that physical things pure and simple, are just not always what they appear to be, to the human eye.

    Nobel Prize Laureate Dr. William Tiller is one the their professors if Zoltan seeks some credibility. Of course there must be other institutions I am just aware of this one. It would not surprise me in the least either if the Catholic Church has a science based research center either. Jesus taught us 2000 years ago about "Oh Ye of little faith and It is done unto you as you believe".

  8. Are you all in denial? Didn't your read the LONG LONG LIST on D_ANA's Blog of all the Cardinals and Bishops who support the NCW? Didn't you see there are Three NEO BISHOPS and many more who WALK. Why are you saying only Archbishop Anthony is the only one? Fools that you are!

    1. "The whole world groaned, and was astonished to find itself Arian." - St. Jerome

    2. Show stopper, Tim!

    3. @Anon 341PM There was a LONG LONG LIST of prominent religious, political and influential supporters of Jim Jones and David Koresh (Cultists). Wake up.

  9. Praestet fides supplementum
    Sensuum defectui.

    do neocats ever sing the hymn that contains these words? given zoltan's facepalm-inducing comment, probably not.

    sounds like the neocats really need to study up on the basics of aristotelian natural philosophy. don't they teach that stuff to the seminarians in yona?

    and then ... the "authentic source" hides behind a pseudonym. because, you know, Christ, who came into the world to become a sinner, said to hide your faith under a bushel basket. and it also snows on guam.


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