One of the reasons we appreciate comments from the opposition is because of how much time they save us. Rather than spend years trying to figure out what these people believe, they are simply handing it to us with their comments. In fact, we are able to learn more than people in the Way themselves since it takes many years to go through all those steps to become a real Christian. (Where is THAT in the Bible?)
They hate it when I analyze their comments, but hey, once you give them to me they belong to me, no? (A little Spanish lingo there.) So let's begin today's lesson! We'll begin by posting the whole comment and then we'll dissect the frog as usual.
Anonymous (because they don't have the actual conviction of their beliefs to put their name to what they write) says:
To be clear, I am not a seminarian. Thank You to Tim for blowing my comment way out of proportion and adding his deciphering skills to each line. You didnt have to do that, it was plain and simple.
You continue to talk about how big of an issue it is for the people of Guam to be forking out a bill for the formation of "foreigners" . What the people need to be reminded is that the faith landed on our shores in the form of a "foreigner". This foreigner originates from a country that many of these mission families also have left behind to come to Guam to spread the Good News.
You continue to say that you all represent the People of Guam and their hurts, complaints and years of neglect from our Archbishop. I agree with Ro Underwood, these are sad days, because all you continue to portray here through your comments and the comments that you allow, is that we are a cold people, a people unappreciative to the zeal that has landed on our shores to help us with the faith.
To be even more clear, cause I thought you would understand, The Parish I belong to was ran by the Capuchins for many years at where I was able to celebrate the Sacraments of Reconciliation, Holy Communion and Confirmation. Not too long after, the Diocesans took over and now we have a Diocesan formed in the RMS. You take a guess at the exact Parish. That though is not important.TIM:
What is important is how marvellous are your marketing skills? I admire how you held your composure really well during the PNC news interview but on your blog it continues to be a no holds bar with your comments.
You and Chuck White already have a history of always wanting to be right. Always wanting to have the last word in any situation. I cant forget the online debate that you had with Father Michael Crisostomo. Your righteousness will not save you. It is indeed a sad day on Guam, because in the same way we hate foreigners free-loading, we continue to listen to "foreigners" and their blogs. I dont care about Tim and Chuck, I care for all of you being deceived by these two and falling in the middle of their political fight with the Archbishop. Its a long plight but I guess youre hoping that one day Fr. Eric will be our Archbishop. He is a good candidate indeed, if he would just stop traveling to Manila every month for his shopping sprees and promotion of the TLM to his kababayans.
*********
Now, let's do our homework. My comments in red.
To be clear, I am not a seminarian. Thank You to Tim for blowing my comment way out of proportion and adding his deciphering skills to each line. You didnt have to do that, it was plain and simple.
For those who are coming in on the middle of this, Anonymous is responding to my analysis of his (?) comment yesterday which you can read here. But yes, it WAS "plain and simple" AND WRONG. You attempted to mislead people by making the GIRM say what it doesn't say in order to justify your Kikofied chapel. But then why should we surprised? A former vice-rector of your seminary, who was even a canon lawyer, lied about what was in the Catechism and placed the lie in that big spread you had in the PDN a few years ago celebrating yourselves. Read it here.
I was hoping you were a seminarian because I wanted to allow for your immaturity, but now you tell us you are a priest. How do we know? Because at the end of your comment you refer to yourself as a "Diocesan." We lay people may be members of a diocese, but we don't refer to ourselves as "diocesans". That adjective is reserved for the clergy. But then who knows with you guys. Your church is very different than ours, so we can't assume anything.
But that brings us to another point. Since you people never tell us who you are, I have to do my best at guessing. So as long as you cowardly hide behind the name Anonymous you give me license to call you whatever I want. Your only defense for this label is that others use it. So! I don't. If you are going to take to task others who call themselves Anonymous and you want to stay Anonymous, then have it. But you personally call me out by name here and yet you hide behind Anonymous. Is it any wonder that fewer and fewer respect you while you cry for respect and apologies? You don't even have the courage to engage me by name. So why should anyone think that the NCW has done anything but make you Cowards for Christ?
However, we're not done. I have to assume that you are even now lying, which is why I put the (?) above after "his". I invite everyone to take a look at the original comment in its original context which you can see here. Notice the very different style of writing. The first comment has no paragraphs as does the above. Also there are several misspelled words and missing punctuation, whereas the above is pretty much perfect. Notice the glaring differences in grammatical construction as well as the pervasive illogic of the first comment, not to mention the very wrong presentation of the GIRM. This was the knee-jerk comment of an immature writer. The comment presently under review is not. So unless you took some overnight crash course in spelling, grammar, and writing, you are not the person who wrote the first comment and everybody can see it. Thus, another lie. But no matter. We're quite used to them.
You continue to talk about how big of an issue it is for the people of Guam to be forking out a bill for the formation of "foreigners" . What the people need to be reminded is that the faith landed on our shores in the form of a "foreigner". This foreigner originates from a country that many of these mission families also have left behind to come to Guam to spread the Good News.
Let's see now, you have just insulted the intelligence and the faith of the people of Guam. You have also insulted the Archbishop. Let's start with the latter. You are saying that after 30 years as Archbishop, the Catholics of Guam need foreigners to come here and teach us how to be Catholic. So apparently Apuron, after inheriting a Catholic Church that had been Catholic for 300 plus years, so destroyed the Catholic Church on Guam that he had to invite missionaries to Guam to re-preach the Gospel. Well, you know, you are half right about that, and many would agree. I'll let you guess which part is half right.
But onto the insult of the intelligence of the people of Guam. You compare the importation of boatloads of seminarians to our original missionaries. Hmmm. If I recall the history, our original missionaries did not come to Guam to be "formed" at the expense of its people. Seems to me they were already priests, hardy, educated, and very-well formed. I also don't recall our original missionaries living in a palace worth many millions of dollars with luxury gym equipment and a seaside swimming pool while forcing Guam's people to pick up the tab. I could go on, but your main defense, that they were brought here to preach the Gospel, is a thorough incrimination of the Archbishop and clergy like you. Obviously, if that is the case, then you haven't been doing your job, have you?
You continue to say that you all represent the People of Guam and their hurts, complaints and years of neglect from our Archbishop. I agree with Ro Underwood, these are sad days, because all you continue to portray here through your comments and the comments that you allow, is that we are a cold people, a people unappreciative to the zeal that has landed on our shores to help us with the faith.
So again, we have to ask, why is it that our diocese needs "help...with the faith."? Is our Archbishop not capable? Are our priests not capable? Are we, after three hundred years of Catholicism in one of the most condensed and protected Catholics parts of the world, not capable of being Catholic without this new colonization?
But of course, the truth is they are NOT here to "help us with the faith." They are here to spread the Neocatechumenal Way. They are here to bump up Apuron's numbers. They are here because it's good for Apuron's career. Kiko is a master at buying influence which he does regularly by first buying bishops.
The sad truth is that Apuron and clergy like you have inspired woefully few vocations. And in terms of episcopal careers, new vocations is the currency. Kiko knows this, which is why he supplies bishops like Apuron, who inspire few vocations, with a ready supply of juiced up neocats who are either too young to know better or who are refugees and rejects from other dioceses and religious orders. (Don't think we don't know!)
To be even more clear, cause I thought you would understand, The Parish I belong to was ran by the Capuchins for many years at where I was able to celebrate the Sacraments of Reconciliation, Holy Communion and Confirmation. Not too long after, the Diocesans took over and now we have a Diocesan formed in the RMS. You take a guess at the exact Parish. That though is not important.
Right. It's not important. Guessing is tiresome and I don't feel like doing it right now. But with cowards like you who don't have the spiritual gonads to put your name to anything, that is really all that's left us, isn't it?
TIM:What is important is how marvellous are your marketing skills? I admire how you held your composure really well during the PNC news interview but on your blog it continues to be a no holds bar with your comments.
Actually, it takes no skill to tell the truth. It does take skill to lie, and you're a bad liar. You need some skills. Call me.
You and Chuck White already have a history of always wanting to be right. Always wanting to have the last word in any situation. I cant forget the online debate that you had with Father Michael Crisostomo. Your righteousness will not save you.
No, Chuck White and I have a "history" of always wanting the truth, something you have a "history" of not only NOT wanting, but have demonstrated a remarkable penchant for lying as you did (since you are claiming to be the author) in trying to deceive us about the GIRM. We either have to assume that you are ignorant, can't read, or you're lying.
It is indeed a sad day on Guam, because in the same way we hate foreigners free-loading, we continue to listen to "foreigners" and their blogs. I dont care about Tim and Chuck, I care for all of you being deceived by these two and falling in the middle of their political fight with the Archbishop.
Let's see now, so your "foreigners" are okay, but us "foreigners" (Chuck and myself) are not. Ummm, maybe because your foreigners are neo and Chuck and I are not. Maybe you don't get it, but most of the content on this blog opposing your neocat ways is NOT coming from Chuck or me, it is coming from hordes of angry local people who have been forced into submission and silence for decades. Chuck and I have just had the courage to put our name to our convictions, something you are not capable of. Very brave behind your Anonymous bush, aren't you? That is what is truly sad: a coward priest.
Its a long plight but I guess youre hoping that one day Fr. Eric will be our Archbishop. He is a good candidate indeed, if he would just stop traveling to Manila every month for his shopping sprees and promotion of the TLM to his kababayans.
And here, "Father", you tell us who you are. Never mind supplying your name. You just gave it. But more important, you have shown us the fruit of the Neocatecumenal Way...and, at least in your case, it is ROTTEN.
Oh, and as for my always having the "last word." Ummm, yah. It's my blog. It's my jungle. Don't want to get hurt? Then don't play in it. But you can't stay away, can you? See you on TV. And about that "document"...mmmm, never mind.
People of Guam, Don't be deceived by Tim and others. I am talking on behalf of the Other CATHOLICS that believe this is a big mess that by posting on blogs, news and other social media it brings the Catholic Church Down.
ReplyDeleteTim, I know you are just posting the comments of each person after reviewing them. But is it necessary to go to the Media (PNC)?
You talk about Aaron and how he is still a "kid" and how he has been serving in CATHEDRAL. False, Aaron began being an altar server in Santa Barbara Parish under Father Paul and then while going to a special program where those who want to join the Diocesan Formation can attend a social gathering each Wednesday, with prayers, Mass, etc. but why did he leave Santa Barbara and move to Cathedral? Maybe because his Confirmation God-Father is Msgr. Benavente!
but nonetheless, Lets not put all the hate mail on anyone but those who are at fault. Mr. Rohr, STOP ALL THE NONSENSE!
Delete this web page and you going to the media. You are a Cry for help. Maybe it is only you who needs help but just deal with your own group. Attend your own mass. Go and do what you shall. But to personally blame the Arch and the Neos. I blame you and all your followers!
This is coming from a Real Catholic who believes that Tim should STOP persecuting The Catholic Church on GUAM!
Note: I ain't a Neo! I was a former TLM. But I saw the light and notice that Tim you were there like nothing you do in this jungle ever happened.
I will play in the Jungle because I from Guam.
J. Cruz
Thanks, Tom. But if I take down the jungle, where are you going to play?
DeleteActually, they (the media) called me. You think that I'm the only one following this story? But I agreed to meet with the media because I am dealing with people who only care about how they appear in the media. Or haven't you figured that out yet?
DeleteAnd why bring James in this mess? So far he kept his nose clean....Even if he has been sidelined.
DeleteWow Tim looks like "Tom " feels crucified??? Is there more to this story?
These J.Watch detractors are sure are full of hate. They try so hard to persuade that they are the righteous ones, but righteous ones don't have get personal to prove a point. Comment after comment, instead of addressing the issue, they attack the person.
DeleteShame on all of you attacking this blog and the people who are exposing you.
Ironically, the real truth of who you are has not been exposed by Tim, Chuck, this blog and anyone else who has contributed, rather the true ugliness of your egos have been exposed by your own comments.
Sad.
Just a few things:
DeleteOf course your entire comment is moot since Tim and all those on this blog did not create the problems residing in the archdiocese. So go sound off to the real root of the problems and issues and stop blaming the whistle blower.
Attacking Aaron's character? That is low.
Deleting this blog and silencing all of us will not make the problems go away. They existed well before Jungle Watch. It's really not that difficult to understand if you're honest with yourself.
A Real Catholic does not have to say that they are a Real Catholic.
How can someone be a former TLM? Wouldn't a Real Catholic know what TLM stands for?
Your entire comment reveals that you cannot handle the Jungle.
Wow! First , the religious sister are not good enough, then the naming of clergy, what next,? Hey, Father Mike Crisostomo, do you know that according to the Mangilao parishioner, the Church of the Immaculate Heart of Mary is not suitable enough for the Lord'? (As posted on Diana's blog)
Deletemaybe the church of the IHOM is suitable enough for the Lord, but maybe Archie is afraid that Fr. Mike, like Fr. Paul, will not be bullied into quiet submission and hey, he's a Guam boy, so he also cannot be deported to the Philippines (return to sender). Arch already cannot handle the MAJOR fallout from the terrible lack of judgment in handling of Fr. Paul's case, he is probably too afraid to see what would happen if he takes another strike at another local priest who is doing this for his people and THE LORD (ie, not kiko)
DeleteI don't think Apuron is afraid. I'm pretty sure he feels solid that Kiko has his back. There is no other explanation for the continued bulldozer approach.
DeleteJCruz -- it is folks who want to keep their heads in the sand who are enabling an existing problem to continue. I'm sure there were red flags raised back then when the neos first arrived and pitched their stakes; but its not in our culture to question the person who holds the highest position in our Church in this Diocese, so nothing was done. If we continue keeping our heads in the sand, you, yourself, won't even be able to continue your claim of being a "real catholic" (if such animal exists) but maybe a "real neo". So get catechized, then you will under stand why authentic catholicism is very important to us and why being "an informed catholic" is what you would want to be. Esta.
ReplyDeleteBeing an informed Catholic ? Is criticizing the way a church looks being Catholic. Everything is ugly unless it pictures the NCW. Asked the man from Mangilao who has nothing better to do than to criticize the beauty of the Church. Go to Barrigada where the sun is shining brightly!
Delete2:39PM --I think you're missing the point, again. The issues pointed out here are not the mere artistic looks or interior decor of a church but those physical things that belong in a Catholic Church that may be intentionally missing or what is physically intentionally added, but don't belong to an authentic Catholic Church which "waters down" or refashions and alters Catholic lliturgy, traditions, reverent posture, devotions and beliefs, etc.
DeleteIf one is catechized (meaning is an informed Catholic) one would know what is not authentic Catholicism.
If you, as a Catholic enter a building with Jewish symbols and Jewish furnishings and missing furnishings that would make Catholic Mass celebration impossible, wouldn't you question if it really is a Catholic Church? Constructive criticism and questions are usually the first ways to discover whether you are in a bon afide Catholic Church or not, wouldn't it? and if that "church" continues to claim to be Catholic in spite of all the missing furnishings (kneelers, altar, etc) and altered liturgies and reverent postures, wouldn't you be seriously concerned? That's what Tim enables in this blog.
Because a few Catholic members lack tact and courtesy does not mean every member is the same -- not good logic. Also may I point out that we have nothing against individual members (they simply follow what they are taught), but we do have lots of grievances with the neo leaders who do the neo teaching and leading. Unfortunately when it comes to questioning non-authentic Catholic practices, the buck stops with our Archbishop, and he is in this movement, so....
3:59. I know what you are saying. What I am trying to point out is (1) the Neo believe that a church is ugly without KIKO'S murals. (2) when someone states that a church is only a four corner slab of stone, like the Church of the Immaculate heart of Mary, they mean that it is only a building made of brick but that it isn't a real Church until the community of the faithful come to realize the WAY of salvation (3) to some members the beauty of the church is in the murals of Kiko rather than the presence of the Blessed Sacrament. Now are we on the same wave length here or not?
DeleteP.S. I never edit my comments so if grammar, and spelling is wrong so be it!
I'm confused...whose Tom? and whose J. Cruz?
ReplyDeleteAnonymous/J. Cruz: While you are correct in noting that Aaron started off as an altar server at Santa Barbara Parish under the leadership of Fr. Paul Gofigan, you are seriously mistaken in your assertion that Tim is “persecuting The Catholic Church on GUAM.” How interesting that the term you opted to use — “persecute” — has been the mantra of the NeoCats! While “Regular Catholics” air grievances about the irregular activities from the Three on the Hill, the word “persecute” does not come into play. On the other hand, NeoCats seem obsessed with using the words “persecute” and “persecution” whenever someone raises a question and/or concern about them or their activities.
ReplyDeleteIt took me a long time to come to the realization of the harm the NCW was inflicting on the Church in Guam. As I’ve stated in the past I used to defend the activities of the NeoCats when other “Regular Catholics” expressed their concerns about the “division in the Church” as far back as 2005. It was not until I heard the Archbishop speak disparagingly about Cardinal Arinze and then proclaim that ONLY “The Way” offered the FULLNESS of the Eucharist on KOLG in January 2006 that I realized I was wrong and admitted that there WAS/IS a division in the Church in Guam.
Until the Archbishop’s actions in removing Fr. Paul Gofigan as Pastor of Santa Barbara Church, I had no strong feelings about the NeoCats. Other than resenting being held hostage as I was forced to sit through their annual commercials during Mass, they really weren’t on my “radar,” so to speak. I know people who are in the NCW — including a few close friends who have since passed away — and we have been able to maintain warm friendships through the years. I believe it is mainly because none of the people I know are rabidly venomous like several of the NeoCat commenters on this blog. So I know that the NeoCats who “play in the Jungle” are very poor representatives of the members as a whole.
Nevertheless, I found it interesting that you felt compelled to assert that you “ain’t a Neo” and then described yourself as “a former TLM” who “saw the light and notice that Tim you were there like nothing you do in this jungle ever happened.” I’m not sure if you meant that were a “former member of the TLM community” because you certainly were never — and never will be! — a “TLM” as you claim. I’m not sure why you felt it was relevant to mention that you noticed Tim’s presence at the Extraordinary Form of the Holy Sacrifice of the Mass. Did you notice anybody else there? Or were you only focused on Tim?
I also found it interesting that you wrote, “I blame you and all your followers!” because although you deny being a NeoCat, you seem to think like one. NeoCats — including the Archbishop — follow a person; they follow Kiko. Let me state for the record: Tim, on whom you pin your blame, has NO FOLLOWERS; however, his BLOG, JungleWatch, has followers — lots of them. You and the NeoCats don’t seem to understand that there is a difference between Tim the person and Tim’s blog, JungleWatch.
As Tim has repeatedly stated, it’s easy to get rid of JungleWatch: Just show him the document.
In time ahead the media will go,to Tim with much more serious issues. So it's good Tim is become a voice for the catholic community of Guam. Tim, congratulations you are a blessing to Guam.
ReplyDelete@anonymous at 1:29. So, you prefer to give additional stress to the sisters to teach a girl to be a nun? I don't doubt that these nuns can teach a girl to be a nun, but at what cost? The cost of losing their life early because of the additional stress you put on them?
ReplyDeleteBTW 6:01 my reply is at 6:18. I was educated by both the Notre Dame and Mercy sisters and have a strong bond with them. I do attend the daily weekday masses at the Carmelites and I know Sister Dawn Marie well. Do don't think I won't ask?
DeleteStress? Why don't you go to the religious sisters and ask them what stress would be imposed on them? Then report it to us. Let us see. SSND is Sister Mary Juan CAmacho; Mercy is Sister Cecilia Camacho, the Carmelites is Mister Dawn Marie. In two weeks time I will ask them if they were ever interviewed by someone about stress!
ReplyDeleteSo much excuses about why girls are not encouraged to enter here. First it's old age and now stress. Admit it....they have their own community that does not follow the NCW. Father Pius directs these girls to NJ because this is where he hails from and it is the center of the NCW in the USA under the guidance and the protection of the Giuseppes! Who are you fooling...just yourself!
If the sisters were ever asked, they are only going to say yes because they're obedient. You're the one who is going to end up killing them early by giving them stress. The elderly and sick is supposed to be cared for, not be driven with hard work that may cause them stress.
ReplyDeleteIf you don't think the religious sister are not questioning, think again! They wonder why?
DeleteWe all know the reason as per Diana, a TAKE OVER by a bunch of NAZI-NEOS! HEIL HITLER!
Gosh, I was mentioned in a blog. This makes me famous or infamous...whatever, let me be perfectly clear, I'm not an NCW member and because there's so much tension within the churches, my psyche goes on 'anxiety' mode. What upsets me is that there are few people who dare to stand up for the Roman Catholics while the Bishop continues to dismantle the church as I knew it. I was not surprised that it was the Bishop that heads the trashing of the RC church. Because I have experience with the cold man that the bishop is(to me and IMHO). It doesn't take a degree in PSY to realize that he has two faces but that's just his personal side and really don't give two hoots that he doesn't like me....you don't like me? Get in line! The moment I heard about Fr. Gofigan, I knew it had to do with the NEOs. Everything I privately predicted is indeed happening. We haven't had the guts to bring the church and money issues to the Vatican. There's a Holy man there that will be very upset to learn about what's happening on this island. There's the issue of Fr, Gofigan's firing and rehiring and firing and the man is publicly humiliated and hangs on a pendulum. The issue of trying to force the issue of the NEOs taking over the money and land down our throats. This would make the Holy man even more upset. Personally, I wonder who all these anonymous posters are....if you convictions that the church needs to be stood up for, than you should use your name. There was the mention of Religious Nuns that sounds as if it comes from a maricon or machismo. Having nuns is a blessing. They are teachers and healers, and a reminder of our own woman-ness. I respect my four children and three grandchildren and maybe, my standing up for the RC makes their friends think I'm looney. And perhaps, I am but love my church and if using my name cause others to say who they are when they post will encourage the the tension that is islandwide. What saddens me in today's post is that Fr. Eric has a goal to become bishop. In my opinion, Fr. Eric's daily goal is to be there for someone needing attention, using language and some humor to relate to those of us who yearn an island full of priests like him. Fr. Eric and grandson, RD Gibson, were guests of my son Raymond Gibson. There was not one nanosecond that you could feel that this man wants to be something more than a simple priest. I personally think that Fr. Eric is a holy man and when my time comes, it'll his hand that I will reach for. I think he knows the way to Heaven and in the end, we all want the same thing...in the meantime, we should protest the dismantling the church of Dulce Nombre de Maria....I have this awful feeling that the important relic that was stolen from the chapel at the Friary was taken by a NEO, seminarian or, member. There, I said it....stealing a relic is like spitting on the Face of God.
ReplyDeleteNo stress at all, my dear child of God. We welcome them to join our Order. May god bless you for having so little confidence in us.
ReplyDeleteYou expect me to believe that you're one of the sisters when you use the name anonymous? Me thinks not!
DeleteActually, we have come to learn not to expect anything of you.
DeleteRo. Reading your comment. It would be fair to say that I do not think fr. Eric has any desire or need to become a bishop. He would certainly make a good bishop, but am sure he is happy just to live as a humble cap. In contrast to two others on the hill who already have their bishops rings in waiting.
ReplyDelete