Tuesday, April 8, 2014

CHAMORRO PRAYERS FOR THE DEAD - THE NEO VIEW


RMS professor, David Atienza has some interesting views about Chamorros:

"...Chamorros believe that personal decisions and behaviors do not determine our salvation, but rather how many prayers our family offers after our death."

Just remember, you are paying for this.

Read more. 

28 comments:

  1. Over time the church will clarify the ncw. I think the ncw will eventually follow all the teachings of the church. Even if Kiko has different views, his successors will probably be less stubborn and accept the changes the church makes to the ncw.

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    1. Anonymous (April 8, 2014 at 3:47 AM): If history is any indication about what will happen with the NCW, I have to disagree with your thinking that the "ncw will eventually follow all the teachings of the church." If the NCW doesn't follow Church teaching now, I believe that Kiko's successors will take it even further away from where it currently is.

      Consider: despite the fact that Martin Luther maintained his belief in the Real Presence — that, at the Consecration, the bread and wine change in substance to the Body and Blood of Our Lord Jesus Christ (Transubstantiation) — even AFTER he left the Catholic Church, modern Lutherans reject that doctrine and instead believe that Jesus is present “in, with and under” the forms of bread and wine (Consubstantiation).

      The current Lutheran belief sounds similar to how Zoltan explained the teaching of Kiko Argüello in the March 17 post “You Know?” On March 18 at 11:00 AM, Zoltan wrote: “ … Actually, Kiko has an excellent explanation as of what happens when the bread turns into the Body. In fact, the texture of the bread remains bread and the make-up of the wine remains wine. But the Body of Jesus will appear mysteriously in it in a real sense. The same real sense as he is present in the communities and in His Church.”

      Did you notice that Zoltan did NOT refer to the Real Presence but said that the “Body of Jesus will appear mysteriously in it in a REAL SENSE””? If, per Zoltan, Kiko now teaches that the Body of Jesus appears mysteriously in “REAL SENSE” — does not change in substance! — I do not foresee that his successors will backtrack and teach the doctrine of the REAL PRESENCE — that the Body and Blood, Soul and Divinity of Jesus Christ are really, truly, substantially present under the appearances of bread and wine.

      If, per Zoltan, Kiko teaches that Jesus is present in the “same real sense as he is present in the communities and in His Church,” what would prevent the NCW from eliminating the bread altogether, inasmuch as Jesus is already present is a “real sense” in the NCW community?

      No, Anonymous (April 8, 2014 at 3:47 AM), I’m afraid that what you foresee happening — that the "ncw will eventually follow all the teachings of the church” — is nothing more than wishful thinking on your part.

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    2. Thanks anonymous @ 347AM for my laugh of the day.

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  2. Chucky that is your own delusional interpretation again. Give it up I side with a guy who has a PHD than internet bully like you.

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    1. Another display of the "fruits" of the Neocatechumenal Way, and a coward to boot. But then aren't they all.

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    2. 6:47...I'd rather follow the Magisterium than a painter/singer a former nun and a PHD who teaches error, funny person you.

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    3. 6:47am-- Yet, again, a neo sputtering accusations without factual basis for his accusation. But then, we're all used to your lack of substance-evading-the-issue-no-factual-or-documentation-ways in "the way".

      Chuck was sharing a FACT about what this PROFESSOR, HIMSELF, VERBALLY SAID AND TALKED about at that roundtable of the Chamorro’s rosary novenas for the deceased. The professor is the one with the “delusional interpretation” about our practice of saying the rosary for the dead, not Chuck. I know. My factual basis? I was there! I heard this for myself.

      I and two other Chamorro women with me were not only beside ourselves over what we heard, but were offended by this false claim; and as if that was not offensive enough, we were disappointed -- no, we were appalled -- that Archbishop Apuron and Msgr. Quitogua (Jr), present and at the same table as this professor, both said not a thing to defend the very Catholic practice of reciting the rosaries for the dead nor defending the culture of their people!!

      You also claim, “I side with a guy who has a PHD” – are you all minions? or simply boot-licking? Really? You side with this person just because a person has initials after their name? And without your taking the effort, yourself, to ascertain whether a claim is based on facts or not, or whether the claim had any validity, or the individual had any credibility, you’re willing to side with and accept the opinion of someone who:

      1) is not from Guam and had not lived on Guam long enough -- nor obviously knew, personally, enough (to warrant such claim) devoted Catholic Faithful Chamorros to whom the rosary for the dead is simply a devotion and a Catholic tradition and valid practice of praying for the deceased.

      2) an outsider individual whose only and primary interest is to push an Anti-Catholic-neo-opinion-and-neo-philosophy-anti-rosary-praying agenda under the guise of academic interest!

      Why do you suppose this neo professor resorted to such subtle (very underhanded and very deceitful) manner of attacking the praying of the rosary? Well, it certainly is a clever and roundabout, deceitful and unsuspecting way to attack the Blessed Mother, isn’t it! God help your souls when you pass away; but I will pray a novena of rosaries for you. Esta!

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    4. Having a PhD doesn't necessarily make a person accurate or wise. My grandfather was a PhD professor of economics and economic advisor to Greece for some years but he destroyed my mother with emotional abuse and believed all non-whites were inferior to him.

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  3. I wonder where Mr David Atienza dug up that information about the belief of the Chamorros about death, salvation, and prayers. All my life I have been taught (and this is what I teach to my children) that when you die with unrepented and unforgiven mortal sin, your final judgement will be eternal damnation and suffering in hell, and you'll be like that rich man who tried to get a drink of water in hell,unlike Kiko's words that he is seeing a lot of humanity coming from hell with deep injuries being saved by his teaching in the ncw, THERE IS NO RETURN. The prayers and sacrifices we Chamorros do for the dead was taught by the Spanish Missionary who came to Guam, and is one of the precepts of our belief that we must pray for all in the hope that in the last breath taken by the person he repented and is forgiven by God and maybe relegated to Purgatory, (but you don't believe in purgatory either, as your talk indicated in one of the seminars I have attended). Jes of Chalan Pago

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    1. As we have witnessed time and time again from members and defenders of the NCW: Facts? What facts?

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    2. I'd like to add that we pray for the dead as if they repented, even if we have reason to believe that they did not. Who knows what happened deep down as they passed? Only God knows.

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    3. Jes, Atienza cites an Australian researcher and a lady from Melesso.

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    4. Maybe that lady is walking in the way herself, or perhaps Atienza heard only what he wanted to hear. It is a sad ploy on his part to prove that the people of Guam need the "New Evangelization" to be saved. At least Atienza and these other neo commenters are proving something: that they really have no clue what our culture is all about. We pray for the dead as an act of mercy. Maccabees tells us we should pray for the dead. Our faith tells us that the souls in purgatory need our prayers. So who is Atienza to say otherwise?

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  4. This may be a reason why the RMS seminarians have that uncaring attitude towards Guam's people. They learn and mimic the methods and attitudes of their professors. When you dig down deeper into their mud puddles, it's all about greed and power and corruption, and sadly, it filters from the top. And this Archbishop wants Aaron Quitugua and other local men to receive this kind of instruction? Total insanity! When will this end?

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    1. Seminarians do not like our people. They mimic us and sadly the priests do nothing to stop it.

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    2. This is because we are the ones who are not saved. Remember, because they walk in the way, they believe they have already received salvation. Because we do not walk in the way, we are still unworthy and need to be converted. It's frightening to realize that Apuron, Quitugua and Cristobal have the same mentality towards their people, and because of this mentality, they turn away local men who desire a traditional diocesan formation. The local Church is in crises.

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  5. While i think the author has made some valid points regarding the act of suicide in the context of our island's unique culture, familial, religious, and societal pressures.

    He makes an illogical jump between the topic of suicide and our guamanian/chamorro practices of devotion to the rosary, whereby the function of the departeds' family may somehow wipe away the sin of the act(s) by citing only one testimony, in as far as is footnoted, through an old lady from Merizo.

    Could it be that this woman had someone in her family die of suicide and because of that intimacy believes that because of all of their prayers the departed will go to heaven? It is not implausible to think that this has shaped her personal view.

    I myself have lost school friends, extended family and neighbors because of suicide. In their rosaries and funerals i have never heard of this reasoning only for the fact that we come together to mourn and pray so that God may have mercy on their soul and pray that they enter into Heaven.

    Also want to point out the adage "the more sins, the more you pray" typical in Catholic Reconciliation taught especially during youth/elementary. 2 Hail Mary's, 2 Glory Be's, 2 Our Father's, or any combination thereof.

    I would say it certainly doesn't hurt us or the departed.
    (to pray)...

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  6. Funny for a Tuesday morning....I would spend eternity in Purgatory if my salvation is based on family prayers....I'm hoping it's not the rosary because not a one of us know how to pray it....when my brother died, my grandson took out his computer and we prayed with 90 others in Canada, the straw that broke the camel's back was when Raymond used his cell phone and the connection was scratchy....Mana asked if she could see the phone and Raymond gave it to her. She turned it off and we finished the rosary on the fly... Besides, I wonder how it is that outsiders 'know' how we pray for the dead. It would be like me going to Ireland and writing or saying that the dead doesn't go to heaven unless we have a big crossing over party. May their souls and the souls of all the faithful departed, through the mercy of God, rest in peace.....I'm sure that the short prayer added to the rosary helps the dead gain Heaven. I'm not sure however that the endless litany of Saints is a Guam only thing. I've never heard it anywhere else...Roman Catholics really should pray for the Lord's protection on how we pray and glorify Him.

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  7. How can this be the neo-view? It looks more like the Chamorro view.

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    1. @ 12:28PM It is a scholarly paper written by a Professor who is in NCW and the paper is about the "Chamorro view" as you put it. So IT IS the view,opinion, finding of someone in the NCW.

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    2. No, anon 12:28PM, its what one Neo professor SAYS is the Chamoru view and he's wrong.

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  8. When a person dies, the soul leaves the body and judged by God immediately . This refers to particular judgment . Judgment taht is specific or particular to that soul either to heaven or hell. That is why we pray the rosary soon after the death. Most souls will probably need purification, the cleaning of sins. So we pray for that soul in purgatory. Judgment will be made to all when the world ends. This is what we refer to as universal judgment where everyone will know. God gave us free will. This is what we Chamorros believe and also is the teaching of the church. A unrepentent soul dies, that person goes to hell. But only God knows. The NCW thinking is totally wrong.

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    1. Anon 3:36 PM NCW is wrong because you hate them no?

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    2. Anon 3:36 PM. Can you guys at least try not to be predictable.

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    3. At 8:31 a.m. There is only one person I know who end his sentences with "no?" and that is Father Alberto!

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    4. Yes, that was pretty easy to tell.

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    5. Janet B - MangilaoApril 10, 2014 at 3:26 PM

      Well, well, well. Now we have Fr Alberto playing in the jungle. Welcome pale. Why don't you clarify what your understanding is so we will know. Don't the Canaries pray for the dead also?

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  9. It is interesting that Atienza came out here as part of the missionary family volunteers!

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