Monday, August 25, 2014

APPARENTLY A "HATE" BISHOP



“It is not correct historically to claim that in early Christian churches the altar was at the centre, nor should it be”. 

- Bishop Barry Jones. Archbishop, Christchurch, New Zealand

http://cathnews.co.nz/2014/08/22/chch-bishop-modernist-church-designs-havent-helped-liturgy/

13 comments:

  1. as i understand it, from very early on, Christians celebrated the Eucharist ad orientem. this was true no matter where they lived in Christendom. so, it would be odd to expect the altar in ancient times to be in the center.

    not criticizing the parish community of dededo, but just a commentary on santa barbara church's physical layout ... i never did get used to the altar-in-the-center layout of santa barbara's main (upper) church space. i haven't gone to Mass there in a couple of years, but i assume it's still the same.

    i've also heard an argument saying that it's okay to place the altar in the center, because the altar at st peter's basilica in rome is (kind of) in the center. i'm not sure i buy that argument.

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    Replies
    1. No. It's not in the center. It is in the transept and is where it is because it is built directly above the tomb of St. Peter.

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    2. true. now i can explain better why i didn't buy that argument. thanks!

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    3. The architecture of the Dededo Parish was originally designed so the Altar can be seen by all by a rotating mechanism. Due to cost in doing this and other issues when the carpet was replaced, it was no longer feasible.

      I am sure once the NEOCATS get a hold of the Dededp Parish, they will have the base for their worship. It is prime territory for the NEOCATS which is why the want it so badly.

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    4. You'll find more articles regarding our issues if you go to the Pacific tab at the top of the New Zealand website.

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    5. As a parishioner of Dededo since the time masses were held in the space that is now the school gym, I remember the intent for the circular church was not the choice of the parishioners but Monsignor Zoilo Camacho's vision of a layout that would be able to accommodate the large number of parishioners in Dededo (Geometric rule of circles enclosing more area than other regular polygons with the same perimeter)=More people can be accommodated/seated in a circular shape I think.The now lower church level was originally the main church, and it was constantly standing room.

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    6. There may have been some logistical reasons for it, but I'm assuming that your church was built in the 70's. I still remember a great debate between several members of the Los Angeles clergy after a presentation by a certain Fr. Matthew Fox (who later left the church) in which Fr. Fox presented by "circle model" of liturgical space versus the traditional cruciform. The talk was entitled "Sara's circle vs Jacob's ladder". The idea was to create a more horizontal church vs a vertical one. The debate made such an impression on me that I can remember it 40 years later. As I watched the debate unfold I knew I was witnessing the beginning of a war. I don't feel like relating the rest. Suffice it to say that reducing the church to the horizontal has had devastating consequences. The Neo is only the latest manifestation.

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    7. At 2:20PM. Yes. Archbishop's lies reach New Zealand. I can't even begin to imagine the price for this calumny.

      http://cathnews.co.nz/2014/08/08/guam-archdiocese-financial-review-highlights-accounting-holes/

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  2. i remember santa barbara church during my school days in the mid 80s being referred to as "the new dededo church," so it was built later than the 70s.

    i also remember hearing about the plan to make the sanctuary rotate, but that sounded almost silly to me and i thought people were just pulling my leg, even though it was fascinating to my young, technology-inclined mind. but even then, i wondered, why would you want an altar that spun around like a merry-go-round?

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    Replies
    1. Yes. That sort of tells you that there was something else going on other than logistics. When we look at the clothes people wore back then, you can kind of understand the churches better.

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  3. We are in the New Zealand news. Click pacific and see articles

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  4. Another disturbing part of the NCW is their baptism rituals for babies which are a far cry from what I remember, and I'm a godparent to a number of Catholic children. Notice the full on naked baby dunking in this cross shaped bathtub that must also be a "kiko tub" because it's seen in other neo-baptism masses on YouTube. I've seen this same cross shaped baptismal tub used in Guam. The photo looked like it was during a vigil in the Okura (now Lotte) Ballroom. Why are their baptisms separate and clandestine?
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4MdBS_v-2vw

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i9O9YMy0rLQ

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A2qvLqEKPAQ

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfs4h6AzIp0

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  5. Yes, the most laughable thing about the Neos is their claim that their liturgy comes from the early church. Sorry, no dancing around tables; no concelebrating by congregants; no bible in the tabernacle; no handling of the Eucharist in a way that indicates a lack of belief that it is the body of Christ.

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