Wednesday, March 5, 2014

DON'T MESS WITH THE CAPS

Our specimen of a neo-seminarian in that last post said something to which I could only respond "HUH?" But now that I'm done choking, let me help out this poor man. Here's what he says:
I am not saying that what the Capuchins had taught us are wrong but you need to realize that their actions in how they handle the parish community is influenced by their formation and it is not the only formation that exists. I always wondered why my parish took so long to rebuild itself(the church building). I realized it was the Capuchin way of life. Money was not made of an issue. The vow of poverty sort of forced the priest to make due with what already existed, even if it meant patching an already termite infested panel with another on top of another.
Look, let me do you a favor. You don't mess with the Caps. You want a revolution? A real one? You want real pitchforks and torches instead of just nasty comments on this blog? Go ahead, mess with the Caps. They were here way before you neons. Maybe you don't recall what happened in 2009. Look it up. Meanwhile, we're looking you up. 

38 comments:

  1. The capuchins are dearly loved and respected on Guam.

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  2. Go right ahead do a revulotion, I dare you! I'll provide you the forks Tim ROHR.
    I have a Louisville Bat here that have your name, I got this from the Bronx where I grew up.

    Sinajana Man

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    1. Are you man enough to put your name on your threat "Sinajana Man"?

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    2. yeah Giovanni "Gino" Corleone. How bout that. You like that eh?

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    3. I am from Sinajana so don't you dare claim that place. Go back to the Bronx!

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    4. Please stop this kind of talk on both sides. Think about what you are saying, is this really what you want to come to? Even if we are not Neo and the Neo's are Neo's, I always believe that we are all still about God. God would not promote this kind of talk or actions. Pray for Peace always, and pray for each other because if we can't, then in the end, the devil wins. sign me as usual, Anon Chicken.

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    5. really with my Chamorro mother and Italian father. Really? I live here before you were born son, continue to love this guy with no substance. Parish of St.Jude. How bout that.

      Gino

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    6. And why are you chicken?

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  3. Tim are you implying a physical threat?! Awesome. Strike first.

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    1. I forgot that I am dealing with people that need everything explained to them. So here goes: "Pitchforks and torches" is an expression meaning public protest, particularly a loud one. Meanwhile, still waiting for your name. Why are you afraid to tell us?

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    2. Coming from a man who takes everything so literal. Wow. Hmm ok.

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  4. Hafa adai. I am not close to the Capuchins as I was younger when we had a Capuchin for a pastor. He was a good priest. When he left we have now regular diocesan priest not Neo priests. As I go around the island to funerals, weddings, fiestas and regular Masses I do get to notice not all Capuchins are the same. Some are better than others. For example the Archbishop is from them is he not??? What is my concern is that let the people be free to chose what priest helps them in their spiritual life. Don't force us one way or another. Neo, regular diocesan, Capuchin or what have you. Let us be free.

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    1. That would be nice. But if you haven't already notice, it is the Archbishop's plan to rid the island of all priests (or at least neutralize them) who are not neo or who don't support it. "First they came..."

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  5. I am not usually a man of peace, but I am greatly puzzled now as of where all these emotions are coming from. I also acknowledge that even in an island community differences between Catholics may arise. What I don't get is this level of polarization popping up here. Cannot the two sides just sit down and compile a complete list of grievances about the other and hand it over to them in peace? Then, of course, some time should be given to both sides to use the list of the other and make amends... How about this, Ladies and Gentlemen?

    From my point of view it is a lot of unnecessary derailments that detract attention from being a good Catholic, which is the only eventual real issue here: how to be a good Catholic in your particular place, Guam? We all have to accept that we are living in a modern Catholic universe of the 21st century defined by Vatican II.

    I even offer a compromise here for the two sides that, when accepted, would show the good intention of everyone involved:
    1. to those who oppose the neo-catechumenary: trust the liturgical issues, if exist, to Rome, because they are the experts,
    2. to the neo-catechumenals: abandon the word "neo" from your name, because it makes a false impression on being a Neo-Christian, which is not the case, as I understand.

    What about this as a first step of good will towards peace?

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    1. Dear Oleg. It is a world-wide problem. Let us know when you have the solution:

      http://www.internetica.it/neocatecumenali/english/home-en.htm
      http://chiesa.espresso.repubblica.it/movimenti_cattolici?eng=y
      http://www.ucanews.com/news/bishop-speaks-out-on-neo-cats/356
      http://www.christianorder.com/features/features_1995/features_apr95.html
      http://cruxsancta.blogspot.com/
      http://www.lingayen-dagupan.org/ArchBishop/neocat.html
      http://jimmyakin.com/2006/01/neocatechumenal_1.html
      http://rorate-caeli.blogspot.com/2006/01/neocatechumenal-way-sits-for-lord-and.html
      http://tasithoughts.com/2008/07/06/the-growing-neocatechumenal-controversy-and-chasm-in-the-catholic-church/
      http://www.internetica.it/neocatecumenali/
      http://whispersintheloggia.blogspot.com/2005/10/neocats-at-issue.html

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  6. Tim this post is a threat.

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    1. Yes it is. It is a threat to the chancery and others who talk down the religious orders on this island, as we have seen several times now on this blog. But it is not a threat from me. It is simply a statement of fact that the people here love their friars and nuns and will rise to their defense, as you have already seen, if they are threatened. I encourage you to reread the story (it was in the news) of what happened at the friary in 2009. So, it is not a threat. It's in fact a charitable warning. Just letting the young man know that he can't say what he wants about the Caps and not expect a serious backlash, not from the Friars, but from the people who love them.

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    2. "Looking you up" refers to following the trail of information about who he is so we can call him out by name, since he feels brave enough to mouth off on this blog but not put his name to it. Sure most do, but we would expect better of a man who one day will be our priest.

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  7. Okay, it is not my job to talk peace. But did I overstep the line...?!

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    1. No line. But whatever country you are from you are certain to have the same problem. Go to some of the links and learn.

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    2. I read the links. Most of it is moot or old. Few is maintained and refreshed as of 2014. Is this really important to import this mess to an island like Guam? The more I read about the neo-cetechumenary the more I am confused. I thought it was a local Roman missionary group a couple years ago. Now everybody is talking about the leader of this group, a certain Spaniard called Kiko... But what does he have to do with the tropics and Guam? What I read, he allied himself with all the existing Popes to allow him and his group to do missionary recruiting. I still don't see why is this such a big issue on Guam, where 90+% of the population is Catholic. As about the Capuchins and the Carmelites, well I just don't see what is going on that turns on up to the brinks so many people...

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    3. Most of the links only track to a particular story. You have to back track to the home pages to get the latest. But it doesn't matter. The problem has been going on for a long time and is still going. We didn't import the problem to Guam, the Archbishop did. And then he took a public stance against the Pope and the rest of us when the NCW was told to conform their liturgy to the liturgical books. We have kept our mouth shut for 15 years. The problem only came to light due to the continued injustice of this archbishop against his priests who are not neos. Thank you for your interest, but I really can't help you any further.

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    4. Thank you, Tim, you helped me a lot. Now I see more what Guam Catholics struggle with. A missionary organization, what the neo-catechumenary basically is, tries to get a hold on the 90+% Catholic population of this little island in the hope that they can grow into majority among the believers. But neo-catechumenary, if you check, is a fringe group at any other place of the world. Because in places where Catholics live around the world, no missionaries are needed at all. They are needed in places, where the Catholic faith is unknown or nonexistent. It looks like Guam is the only exception. All this is too much local politics to me...

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  8. @3:01pm - It's always good to pray for peace. But throughout history, and even in the Bible, God has prompted talk and talk prompts action. If no one speaks up, the Archbishop and the Neocatechumenal Way will continue to disobey the Magisterium and get away with lying to and abusing the people of Guam. How much more injustice and oppression are the local people supposed to endure before they are heard? This is why the need to talk. Hopefully, the uncovering of the many truths Tim has posted will find its way to Rome and and action will be taken.
    To the person threatening Tim in this post - you should not do such lowly things. Tim is doing the right thing by telling the truth. People that feel threatened by the truth are people who have a lot to hide and everything to lose. May I suggest something to you? If you don't like what Tim is saying, stay off his blog. Stop visiting the jungle. It's that simple. Maybe you should go to your room, close your door, and pray. Hopefully this Lenten season will be a journey where you encounter Christ and let go of all the hatred you show and are so very proud of.
    Tim, thank you for all you continue to do. May your efforts be abundantly rewarded.

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  9. Mr. Rohr is correct. All the religious orders on Guam are respected. Any attempt by archbishop Apuron to remove any religious order of men or women will cause further division of the archdiocese. We have already heard of his intentions to remove religious orders. In which case there will be war.

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  10. Unfortunately a lot of people are unaware of commonly used idioms and phrases. Tim explains it best and means no physical threat to anyone, but simply expressed that any unkind words about our OFM Caps will not be tolerated by the people who still love them on this island.

    The mafia guy from Sinajana, who did in fact threaten Tim, was way out of line. That person has no logic or reason and is here for no other reason than to detract and cause us to react. His reasons are diabolical and there is no other way to explain it.

    I read this blog and there have been uncharitable comments toward other religious orders like the Sisters of Mercy and even other Catholic Organizations like the Knights of Columbus. Not once did any of the commenters post an apology to these groups. Why even mention them at all but to relay to the rest of us some negativity. This further drives the point that it is the neo way or no way at all.

    Catholics have tolerated all religious groups and orders on Guam and now it has come to this: the neo way or no way.

    R. Camacho

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    1. When nothing was said from NCW members, many uncharitable comments were made. Insults and disrespectful name calling. Yet there was still no apology.

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    2. When commenters choose to dialogue there will be things said that may not be agreeable and if the bloggers choose to demonstrate irrational, childish behavior and lash out like big babies, they have only themselves to blame for the backlash they receive. More than once have we witnessed this on this blog.

      I put myself out here and if I am called names so be it. I may not like it but I do not expect a sorry at all. BUT, the uncharitable neo bloggers need to apologize to the innocent bystanders unnecessarily mentioned, like the Sisters and Knights. Now it's the Capuchins and Fr Eric? Are you guys aiming for anyone else? These people and/or organizations have not posted anything here or stood up at any public forum against the neo to warrant the abuse they have received. They rightfully deserve an apology.

      I AM SORRY is all that you can't say...just like the Archbishop to Fr. Paul, so I won't hold my breath waiting. Meanwhile, the Sisters, the Knights, and the Caps are up working hard for ALL of God's people on Guam. God Bless them for all their good efforts.

      R. Camacho

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    3. They are even attacking Aaron Q. on Diana's blog. That blog is full of misinformation and incorrect teaching of the Catholic Churh, but the personal attacks are real.

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  11. Archbishop Apuron should be ashamed of himself, as should all of his "advisors". As for the Neo-Cats who are so disrespectful in their posts on this blog site? Is that really what you are about? And you expect the non-Neo members of this church to buy into that? The bottom line is Tim has only spoken with truth. If that bothers you, as yourself "why"?

    The Neo-Way in its isolation, segregation, and secretive-ness is nothing short of a "cult".

    The theme for today, "Turn away from sin and return to the GOSPEL".... Turn away from the lies, the deceit, the insults, and the manipulation that is nothing short of a disgrace.

    If you have a point, make it... with FACTS! Stop with the insults and threats already and walk the talk. If you are such a great community, raise the money needed for your seminary, as all the other schools have to do. But do not force that burden upon the non-Neo members of this church. If you are such a great "WAY" do some community service, help the poor, the sick, and the homeless. Pay for your own conferences in full and leave the rest of us out of it.

    and... do not mess with the CAPS. Archbishop Anthony has since abandoned his roots. It was evident after the 2002 Super Typhoon that when he did not so much as make 3 rooms available down at the RMS for his displaced brothers. Yes, we saw that, eyes wide open, and you should be ashamed.

    The Capuchins are the most humble, generous, and holy men ... The Archbishop, his advisors, and the Neo-Way will never amount to them.... not the way they've been going about it thus far.

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  12. Anon 442am. Correct. If we all remain silent archbishop Apuron and his two friends on the hill will continue to insult the church on Guam . The best way is to stop money into the archdiocese, encourage theeople to stop donating to the archbishops appeal this lent and let the people's voice be heard.

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  13. To: Neo or the Archbishop (if he reads this). One more question: why is a discalced Carmelite priest/presbyter from Malta on the archdiocese of Agana payroll?

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    1. Teaches part time at RMS...gets paid for articles written in Umatuna Si Yu'us...gets reimbursement for airfare...? Who knows?

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    2. Flying First on Dubai Airlines. true

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    3. Tim, did you get paid for your articles in U' Matuna?

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    4. Yes. I was paid many compliments. Thank you.

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    5. Just wondering, since I read Father a Pius is paid for his column. Part of the reason he is on the payroll. I also compliment you.

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